harmless wrote:I'm English, have seen them 3 times, and would say I've been a 'hardcore fan'. I reject the idea that 'hardcore fan' means you've seen them seventy times on tour. I've loved their music and now think it's shit more often than not. If they are trying to reach me, they are more or less failing. And releasing these vault tracks did not help.
i didnt get to see them live until 2000, and im gonna say that before 2000 i was more hardcore then i am right now
seeing shows and a lot of shows is a hardcore thing to do, but sometimes that isnt a possibility, i feel real lucky to have been able to see them as much as i have, but with out the live shows i would still love their music with a passion, and thats what it takes to be a hard core fan IMO
Jeff leaked these songs, woke Ed up and put a computer in front of him so he can see the orgasm the fans are having over them and is trying to convince him this is the right direction for the band. "FORGET LIGHTNING BOLT!! THIS IS WHAT WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING ALL ALONG! TRUST THE FANS! THEY KNEW WHEN WE WERE MAKING GREAT MUSIC BEFORE, DIDN'T THEY?!?"
"I want to see the whole picture--as nearly as I can. I don't want to put on the blinders of 'good and bad,' and limit my vision."-- In Dubious Battle
Tuolumne wrote:If the last 2 slbums were full of songs like these I believe the "hardcores" - those that travel for a dozen shows a tour would be more on board with them. The less hardcore would have completely dropped off the band. They'd be 3 or 4 lines down on a major festival poster and the general music listening public (I'm talking like Stereogum or Consequence of Sound readers, people who go to music festivals) would have written them off and they would be looking at a career like where John Mellencamp, Jackson Browne, Black Crowes or Los Lobos are right now. Not a bad thing, but people would be whining about why they're stuck in this lot instead of conquering fesitvals. My comments here are not about commercial success, but about relevance, two different things.
harmless wrote:10c is shutting these down because they want us to wait for the versions with lasers and electric piano.
LOL
What are "lazers"? An example of a "lazer" in a PJ song please
Are you fucking serious?
No, really. I don't know what you mean by "lazers" and would like to find out. Don't read too much into it, I'm new here and haven't picked up on the local slang yet
A sound we have been calling a "laser" -- some synthesised robotic shit -- is all over the studio version of Speed of Sound, along with organ AND electric piano AND castanets.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
harmless wrote:I'm English, have seen them 3 times, and would say I've been a 'hardcore fan'. I reject the idea that 'hardcore fan' means you've seen them seventy times on tour. I've loved their music and now think it's shit more often than not. If they are trying to reach me, they are more or less failing. And releasing these vault tracks did not help.
i didnt get to see them live until 2000, and im gonna say that before 2000 i was more hardcore then i am right now
seeing shows and a lot of shows is a hardcore thing to do, but sometimes that isnt a possibility, i feel real lucky to have been able to see them as much as i have, but with out the live shows i would still love their music with a passion, and thats what it takes to be a hard core fan IMO
Amen! My first show was also in 2000, though I'd been buying their music since 93
While I tend to agree that some of the later offerings from the band aren't quite up to the same level as earlier albums, each of the "newer" albums are great in their own rights. I was at the Chicago show and while Lightning Bolt and Future Days didn't jump out at me, I'll reserve judgement until I hear the actual songs the records. The 3 hour delay didn't do Ed's voice any justice and I imagine Future Days will sound much better on the album itself.
This gets me to the two b-sides that were leaked. I'm still digesting them so I'll reserve judgement until I get quite a few listens under my belt. That being said, early reviews on them are that they are great songs.
I wanted to address b-sides in general. I became a fan of Ten when it released. The whole album blew me away. A few months after getting the album I stumbled upon the Jeremy single and was blown away. I couldn't believe how good Yellow Ledbetter and Footsteps were. Soon after I found Wash, Alone, Dirty Frank, etc. The Singles soundtrack came out and Breath and SOLAT blew me away again.
The elusive Hard to Imagine was probably my holy grail for b-sides and I remember being in college listening to crappy versions of it waiting for the day to get a live version or a better version of it. Chicago Cab came out and I was finally satisfied although the song was a little different from the original version that I had heard. Lost Dogs sealed it with a perfect version of the song.
The point of this is that Pearl Jam has always made phenomenal b-sides that did not make it on the record. For whatever reason the band decided to hold off on releasing them. I guess the big difference was back in the day that they released b-sides so you were not left searching for songs that were rumored to exist.
When Vitalogy came out people were scratching their heads. Same thing with No Code. Those were and are still two of my favorite albums.
Everyone needs to step away from the ledge. The new PJ record will be great. Will you love every song in 20 years, probably not. Will they be bad songs? Probably not again. The band still writes great songs and maybe they can or cannot put together an album like Ten or Yield again but they can still write a great song. The band all have families and are happier now than they probably have ever been. I met/talked to Eddie 3 times in Chicago. I can say for sure he is in a better place. As is Mike.
Will their happiness reflect in their music? Sure, I've always said that once bands sober up and make some good money their music suffers. This hasn't been as extreme in Pearl Jam by any means but yeah, they may write things a little differently nowadays. Doesn't make them a bad band or not aware of what the fans want. It's just where they are at in their lives right now.
Accept it and enjoy all the great music they've made over the years.
Tuolumne wrote:If the last 2 slbums were full of songs like these I believe the "hardcores" - those that travel for a dozen shows a tour would be more on board with them. The less hardcore would have completely dropped off the band. They'd be 3 or 4 lines down on a major festival poster and the general music listening public (I'm talking like Stereogum or Consequence of Sound readers, people who go to music festivals) would have written them off and they would be looking at a career like where John Mellencamp, Jackson Browne, Black Crowes or Los Lobos are right now. Not a bad thing, but people would be whining about why they're stuck in this lot instead of conquering fesitvals. My comments here are not about commercial success, but about relevance, two different things.
seriously, who gives a shit about any of this?
People do. I do. They're going for the mid-tier PJ fan, who are worthy PJ fans. I know I'm a "fanboy" defender on here, but I've gone to a dozen shows, have never traveled to see them. In my mind, I'm a hardcore fan, but nothing like some people. I think there's a certain breed of music lover they want to connect to in the modern era. Not everyone can be pleased and can be on board. I'm using "festival headliner" not in some kind of commercially competitive way, but as a benchmark for what sort of fans might be exposed and could dig the music. Those fans would probably shy away from posting around here and probably only go to shows when they're in town, but they're still fans who love music.
Not necessarily. Just because you want to go re live some glory day and fist pump to alive and scream fuck during Jeremy doesnt make you a "music fan".
And ultimately, pointless argument, Pearl Jam branded themselves as artists once upon a time. This is not an artistic approach to their music.
Why? To connect to fans is not an artistic approach? PJ is at their strongest when they connect. They are not an "innovative" band. They never have been. They worship the past (The Who, Ramones, Neil Young) and they simply absorb and synthesize prior achievements in rock and make it relevant for today. Rock is in a shaky state, people need to hear it and they need to feel the presense of the bands that PJ embodies. It would be a shame if mass amounts of younger people never felt the power that the Who brought and which now lives in PJ. PJ's entire artistic value to me is about how it has taken on it's own life within it's fans. What they make in the studio is one thing, the life it as taken with it's fans is a whole other force. They want this to live not just in one small set of people, they want it to live with more music lovers who would love the music if they heard it. They are, and it is working to a moderate degree. Backspacer is a solidly moderate success. Moderate mid-tier PJ fans love it and are on board and interested. They're just not going to come on here.
4/5 wrote:Jeff leaked these songs, woke Ed up and put a computer in front of him so he can see the orgasm the fans are having over them and is trying to convince him this is the right direction for the band. "FORGET LIGHTNING BOLT!! THIS IS WHAT WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING ALL ALONG! TRUST THE FANS! THEY KNEW WHEN WE WERE MAKING GREAT MUSIC BEFORE, DIDN'T THEY?!?"
harmless wrote:I'm English, have seen them 3 times, and would say I've been a 'hardcore fan'. I reject the idea that 'hardcore fan' means you've seen them seventy times on tour. I've loved their music and now think it's shit more often than not. If they are trying to reach me, they are more or less failing. And releasing these vault tracks did not help.
i didnt get to see them live until 2000, and im gonna say that before 2000 i was more hardcore then i am right now
seeing shows and a lot of shows is a hardcore thing to do, but sometimes that isnt a possibility, i feel real lucky to have been able to see them as much as i have, but with out the live shows i would still love their music with a passion, and thats what it takes to be a hard core fan IMO
Very much so. The first time I saw them was in 2006. So for all those years, what kept me here was their albums and the fun I'd been having on the internet message board (at that time I had only been a member of the Pit for a couple of years). PJ have managed to keep me interested with albums and (official) live releases alone. DVDs. CDs. Not even bootlegs. To say that they're doing anything for people like me now might sound convincing to someone else, but it doesn't square with my narrative at all. I'm still not seeing them live, but the only difference is that I wouldn't really want to even if I did have the money.
Last edited by harmless on Tue July 23, 2013 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
harmless wrote:A sound we have been calling a "laser" -- some synthesised robotic shit -- is all over the studio version of Speed of Sound, along with organ AND electric piano AND castanets.
Ah, no wonder I knew nothing about a "laser" -- Speed of Sound was such utter crap (incl. the demo version) I instantly hit skip every time
Tuolumne, I think it seems like you're wanting S/T and Backspacer to be bigger commercial successes than they were because it may validate the approach they took. They really didn't break them into a whole new stratosphere. They're playing the same venues, charting on the same places, etc. They could have made records with these songs easily without much change in any other part of their methodology.
Last edited by digster on Tue July 23, 2013 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
harmless wrote:A sound we have been calling a "laser" -- some synthesised robotic shit -- is all over the studio version of Speed of Sound, along with organ AND electric piano AND castanets.
Ah, no wonder I knew nothing about a "laser" -- Speed of Sound was such utter crap (incl. the demo version) I instantly hit skip every time
I really like it, actually. But I'm souring on it since learning how much extra shit was added because O'Brien has a massive ego and wishes he could join the band.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
Tuolumne wrote:If the last 2 slbums were full of songs like these I believe the "hardcores" - those that travel for a dozen shows a tour would be more on board with them. The less hardcore would have completely dropped off the band. They'd be 3 or 4 lines down on a major festival poster and the general music listening public (I'm talking like Stereogum or Consequence of Sound readers, people who go to music festivals) would have written them off and they would be looking at a career like where John Mellencamp, Jackson Browne, Black Crowes or Los Lobos are right now. Not a bad thing, but people would be whining about why they're stuck in this lot instead of conquering fesitvals. My comments here are not about commercial success, but about relevance, two different things.
seriously, who gives a shit about any of this?
People do. I do. They're going for the mid-tier PJ fan, who are worthy PJ fans. I know I'm a "fanboy" defender on here, but I've gone to a dozen shows, have never traveled to see them. In my mind, I'm a hardcore fan, but nothing like some people. I think there's a certain breed of music lover they want to connect to in the modern era. Not everyone can be pleased and can be on board. I'm using "festival headliner" not in some kind of commercially competitive way, but as a benchmark for what sort of fans might be exposed and could dig the music. Those fans would probably shy away from posting around here and probably only go to shows when they're in town, but they're still fans who love music.
But what people were saying is true... festivalgoers who don't know PJ that well are there to rock out to Ten songs, Daughter, and Corduroy/Better Man. They're not thinking "man, they really need to play Army Reserve or Unthought Known." They're there for the massive hits.
The band sold out plenty of shows on their Riot Act tour, and that was for maybe their least commercial record ever. It wouldn't have really mattered if their last two records had been less commercial, IMO. It wouldn't have helped or hurt them much in the big scheme.
I think it's more probable that if you write an honest and well thought out song, more people are going to like it than if you write a song that you want people to like, thus strengthening their legacy.
There's the dog. You can't fake that stuff. Confess with your mouth.
