Cold Confession and Let It Ride - Avocado Outtakes

[BurtReynolds]

there is only one solution. I propose that we build a time machine and go back to the year 2004 and stop them from making the worst artistic decision of their lives.

[stupidmop]

If the last 2 slbums were full of songs like these I believe the "hardcores" - those that travel for a dozen shows a tour would be more on board with them. The less hardcore would have completely dropped off the band. They'd be 3 or 4 lines down on a major festival poster and the general music listening public (I'm talking like Stereogum or Consequence of Sound readers, people who go to music festivals) would have written them off and they would be looking at a career like where John Mellencamp, Jackson Browne, Black Crowes or Los Lobos are right now. Not a bad thing, but people would be whining about why they're stuck in this lot instead of conquering fesitvals. My comments here are not about commercial success, but about relevance, two different things.

seriously, who gives a shit about any of this?

People do. I do. They're going for the mid-tier PJ fan, who are worthy PJ fans. I know I'm a "fanboy" defender on here, but I've gone to a dozen shows, have never traveled to see them. In my mind, I'm a hardcore fan, but nothing like some people. I think there's a certain breed of music lover they want to connect to in the modern era. Not everyone can be pleased and can be on board. I'm using "festival headliner" not in some kind of commercially competitive way, but as a benchmark for what sort of fans might be exposed and could dig the music. Those fans would probably shy away from posting around here and probably only go to shows when they're in town, but they're still fans who love music.

Not necessarily. Just because you want to go re live some glory day and fist pump to alive and scream fuck during Jeremy doesnt make you a "music fan".

And ultimately, pointless argument, Pearl Jam branded themselves as artists once upon a time. This is not an artistic approach to their music.

Why? To connect to fans is not an artistic approach? PJ is at their strongest when they connect. They are not an "innovative" band. They never have been. They worship the past (The Who, Ramones, Neil Young) and they simply absorb and synthesize prior achievements in rock and make it relevant for today. Rock is in a shaky state, people need to hear it and they need to feel the presense of the bands that PJ embodies. It would be a shame if mass amounts of younger people never felt the power that the Who brought and which now lives in PJ. PJ's entire artistic value to me is about how it has taken on it's own life within it's fans. What they make in the studio is one thing, the life it as taken with it's fans is a whole other force. They want this to live not just in one small set of people, they want it to live with more music lovers who would love the music if they heard it. They are, and it is working to a moderate degree. Backspacer is a solidly moderate success. Moderate mid-tier PJ fans love it and are on board and interested. They're just not going to come on here.

I've never seen them, i'm only here cause i actually like listening to thier music.

Edit: and the only reason they have fans in the first place is because of their music. You don't go see a band if you think thier music is shite, no matter how good they are with a crowd.

[harmless]

To connect to fans is not an artistic approach?

that sounds like the polar opposite of art.

Which fans? The ones that like shallow music?

[harmless]

How many times did you say you've seen them? 20 times? That's not a casual fan, that's someone who's too easily pleased.

[digster]

I think it's more probable that if you write an honest and well thought out song, more people are going to like it than if you write a song that you want people to like, thus strengthening their legacy.

I don't think they did it for money, but more for being in the forefront of public concisiousness, i.e. U2. It just seems to me that was a concerted effort to frame the S/T record as a 'reclaiming' of the throne, so to speak. And it didn't happen at all. If it's not going to happen with a record like that, which had a lot of accessible, loud rock songs, it's not going to happen; they're not going to be U2. So they may as well just not worry about it.

[Strat]

To connect to fans is not an artistic approach?

that sounds like the polar opposite of art.

dont artists make art with the intention of it causing a reaction?

Within themselves...

[warehouse]

To connect to fans is not an artistic approach?

that sounds like the polar opposite of art.

dont artists make art with the intention of it causing a reaction?

Within themselves...

so why do they release it to the public?

[harmless]

I think it's more probable that if you write an honest and well thought out song, more people are going to like it than if you write a song that you want people to like, thus strengthening their legacy.

I don't think they did it for money, but more for being in the forefront of public concisiousness, i.e. U2. It just seems to me that was a concerted effort to frame the S/T record as a 'reclaiming' of the throne, so to speak. And it didn't happen at all. If it's not going to happen with a record like that, which had a lot of accessible, loud rock songs, it's not going to happen; they're not going to be U2. So they may as well just not worry about it.

The fact that they tried it again with Backspacer is unimaginably laughable.

[Lounge Lizard]

I really like it, actually. But I'm souring on it since learning how much extra shit was added because O'Brien has a massive ego and wishes he could join the band.

I know what you mean. BoB's giddy strumming on a lot of songs reminds me of an old cartoon with a papa elephant and a baby elefant learning the play the piano. "Smash your right paw right about here and your left paw right about here. That's Louie Louie, son".

[dprival78]

I think it's more probable that if you write an honest and well thought out song, more people are going to like it than if you write a song that you want people to like, thus strengthening their legacy.

I don't think they did it for money, but more for being in the forefront of public concisiousness, i.e. U2. It just seems to me that was a concerted effort to frame the S/T record as a 'reclaiming' of the throne, so to speak. And it didn't happen at all. If it's not going to happen with a record like that, which had a lot of accessible, loud rock songs, it's not going to happen; they're not going to be U2. So they may as well just not worry about it.

The fact that they tried it again with Backspacer is unimaginably laughable.

doesn't seem like the approach is changing that much with LB either..

[---]

And doesn't it presuppose that the songs they've consciously excluded wouldn't appeal to new fans? Tastes and relative enthusiasm isn't uniformly distributed; you're attracting an entirely different type of fan with the Let It Rides and Cold Confessions than you are with the Fixers and Mind Your Mannerses. I would argue that the band is more likely to attract a fan more interested in traveling farther and digging deeper to see/hear music of a higher quality than is a someone who overhears Fixer at TJMaxx or on 98.3 THE HEAT.

This kind of hyper-commercial approach sacrifices depth for breadth, and I don't think it's clear that their current approach is more successful than the counterfactual would be.

[digster]

For the most part, b-sides don't bother me too much. Every record's going to have them, and it's nice to have those nuggets in the catalog that you've got to look for; they add color to the overall picture. Even the Binaural outtakes didn't bother me; the album was really strong already, and we got them two years later.

These are bothersome because S/T clearly could have used some help in the quality songs department.

[Dr. Van Nostrand]

I'm English, have seen them 3 times, and would say I've been a 'hardcore fan'. I reject the idea that 'hardcore fan' means you've seen them seventy times on tour. I've loved their music and now think it's shit more often than not. If they are trying to reach me, they are more or less failing. And releasing these vault tracks did not help.

i didnt get to see them live until 2000, and im gonna say that before 2000 i was more hardcore then i am right now
seeing shows and a lot of shows is a hardcore thing to do, but sometimes that isnt a possibility, i feel real lucky to have been able to see them as much as i have, but with out the live shows i would still love their music with a passion, and thats what it takes to be a hard core fan IMO

Amen! My first show was also in 2000, though I'd been buying their music since 93

Plus they were a damn hard band to see in the early days, one of their shows in Miami sold out in like 5 minutes in 93 or 94, then they went away from ticketmaster and things like that, as much as i would have loved to see them in the early days, there is no shame in missing out imo

[Strat]

To connect to fans is not an artistic approach?

that sounds like the polar opposite of art.

dont artists make art with the intention of it causing a reaction?

Within themselves...

so why do they release it to the public?

You'd have to ask them but do you really think the best art is made with the sole intention of soliciting yeah yeah yeahs from the audience?

I know I keep bringing up Neil, and maybe its unfair, but artists like him, dylan etc... Do not make art for the sake of pleasing a fan base. They make their art for themselves and if lucky - fans will grab onto it. If not? They dont give a shit and they keep soldiering on their own path.

[harmless]

To connect to fans is not an artistic approach?

that sounds like the polar opposite of art.

dont artists make art with the intention of it causing a reaction?

Within themselves...

so why do they release it to the public?

Because it's been deemed good enough for public consumption. The public is not meant to be a 'second opinion' before you realise what works or doesn't. If you're a good band, it's your job to make that call. If you are releasing a product (music), it is not because you desperately want to be liked.

[warehouse]

To connect to fans is not an artistic approach?

that sounds like the polar opposite of art.

dont artists make art with the intention of it causing a reaction?

Within themselves...

so why do they release it to the public?

You'd have to ask them but do you really think the best art is made with the sole intention of soliciting yeah yeah yeahs from the audience?

I know I keep bringing up Neil, and maybe its unfair, but artists like him, dylan etc... Do not make art for the sake of pleasing a fan base. They make their art for themselves and if lucky - fans will grab onto it. If not? They dont give a shit and they keep soldiering on their own path.

yeah, thats unfair, stop comparing them to neil young.

[Strat]

To connect to fans is not an artistic approach?

that sounds like the polar opposite of art.

dont artists make art with the intention of it causing a reaction?

Within themselves...

so why do they release it to the public?

You'd have to ask them but do you really think the best art is made with the sole intention of soliciting yeah yeah yeahs from the audience?

I know I keep bringing up Neil, and maybe its unfair, but artists like him, dylan etc... Do not make art for the sake of pleasing a fan base. They make their art for themselves and if lucky - fans will grab onto it. If not? They dont give a shit and they keep soldiering on their own path.

yeah, thats unfair, stop comparing them to neil young.

When they stop harping on about Uncle Neil and all theyve learned from him...

I will...

[harmless]

To connect to fans is not an artistic approach?

that sounds like the polar opposite of art.

dont artists make art with the intention of it causing a reaction?

Within themselves...

so why do they release it to the public?

You'd have to ask them but do you really think the best art is made with the sole intention of soliciting yeah yeah yeahs from the audience?

I know I keep bringing up Neil, and maybe its unfair, but artists like him, dylan etc... Do not make art for the sake of pleasing a fan base. They make their art for themselves and if lucky - fans will grab onto it. If not? They dont give a shit and they keep soldiering on their own path.

yeah, thats unfair, stop comparing them to neil young.

[warehouse]

To connect to fans is not an artistic approach?

that sounds like the polar opposite of art.

dont artists make art with the intention of it causing a reaction?

Within themselves...

so why do they release it to the public?

You'd have to ask them but do you really think the best art is made with the sole intention of soliciting yeah yeah yeahs from the audience?

I know I keep bringing up Neil, and maybe its unfair, but artists like him, dylan etc... Do not make art for the sake of pleasing a fan base. They make their art for themselves and if lucky - fans will grab onto it. If not? They dont give a shit and they keep soldiering on their own path.

yeah, thats unfair, stop comparing them to neil young.

When they stop harping on about Uncle Neil and all theyve learned from him...

I will...

do they still do that? i thought ed's been kinda riding the boss's jock the last decade or so

[mray10]

I would certainly love to hear these ...