Tuolumne wrote:PJ's entire artistic value to me is about how it has taken on it's own life within it's fans.
Huh. I always derived PJ's artistic value from their art.
Different strokes, I guess.
Different strokes, but that's a legit position that Tuolumne is articulating. Michael Stipe, for instance, used to introduce Losing My Religion by saying 'this is your song--we just cover it'. It's focusing on the shared experience of the art, rather than the art in isolation.
I agree there's a distinction, but I don't think this is it.
Stipe's position is an ex-post one, in which the song takes on a new life after it was composed. I'm saying that incorporating expectations about what is not able to be known - the nature of the life a piece of art takes on after it's completed - ex-ante has consequences for the final composition, and they're not always positive.
Tuolumne wrote:If the last 2 slbums were full of songs like these I believe the "hardcores" - those that travel for a dozen shows a tour would be more on board with them. The less hardcore would have completely dropped off the band. They'd be 3 or 4 lines down on a major festival poster and the general music listening public (I'm talking like Stereogum or Consequence of Sound readers, people who go to music festivals) would have written them off and they would be looking at a career like where John Mellencamp, Jackson Browne, Black Crowes or Los Lobos are right now. Not a bad thing, but people would be whining about why they're stuck in this lot instead of conquering fesitvals. My comments here are not about commercial success, but about relevance, two different things.
seriously, who gives a shit about any of this?
People do. I do. They're going for the mid-tier PJ fan, who are worthy PJ fans. I know I'm a "fanboy" defender on here, but I've gone to a dozen shows, have never traveled to see them. In my mind, I'm a hardcore fan, but nothing like some people. I think there's a certain breed of music lover they want to connect to in the modern era. Not everyone can be pleased and can be on board. I'm using "festival headliner" not in some kind of commercially competitive way, but as a benchmark for what sort of fans might be exposed and could dig the music. Those fans would probably shy away from posting around here and probably only go to shows when they're in town, but they're still fans who love music.
The point is that I - and many music fans - don't really give a shit about any fan demographics beyond how the intensity of the band's considerations of such things impacts their songwriting. Fixating on precisely these extra-compositional issues prevents Pearl Jam from keeping their collective eyes on the ball, and - as evidenced by these releases - the music is the poorer for it.
I think there is a difference between writing songs that you think are going to be popular, and writing songs that you think will be fun to play live. I think pearl jam has definitely moved in the later direction. It's not always a good thing, but there is still (I think) an important distinction to be made here.
I think the point is, they shouldn't be letting the though of how it will be played live, or how it will affect a certain demographic, even enter their mind when creating new music. They should just create the music, and let what happens happen.
agreed with chud
Last edited by bodysnatcher on Tue July 23, 2013 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thejambi wrote:
I don't know. I think he was saying S/T and BS "accessibility" has fueled the tour machine and kept PJ elevated to headliner status. That if the albums were more artistic they wouldn't be as relevant and we would all be bitching because they weren't .
Yeah, I just don't think there's much to support that. I think they'd be playing about the same places now than if they'd never made those two records.
There is nothing 'relevant' about S/T and Backspacer. There is plenty to laugh at about them though. Before those records, I never thought Pearl Jam and 'laughing stock' could be synonymous in my mind, but sadly, they are, and too often. What is musically 'relevant' about Backspacer? What space in the contemporary music scene is it supposed to occupy? It sounds, production-wise, like an album they thought might occupy some space in the radio-friendly world. But still, this is Pearl Jam, and I find it impossible to compare the sound of Backspacer to any other band on the planet. But for all the wrong reasons.
if I didn't know that you liked Backspacer...
People have always been laughing about pearl jam. From the very beginning. Wrongly, but still.
Tuolumne wrote:PJ's entire artistic value to me is about how it has taken on it's own life within it's fans.
Huh. I always derived PJ's artistic value from their art.
Different strokes, I guess.
Different strokes, but that's a legit position that Tuolumne is articulating. Michael Stipe, for instance, used to introduce Losing My Religion by saying 'this is your song--we just cover it'. It's focusing on the shared experience of the art, rather than the art in isolation.
I agree there's a distinction, but I don't think this is it.
Stipe's position is an ex-post one, in which the song takes on a new life after it was composed. I'm saying that incorporating expectations about what is not able to be known - the nature of the life a piece of art takes on after it's completed - ex-ante has consequences for the final composition, and they're not always positive.
"This is your song -- we just cover it" is just charming, witty but ultimately meaningless rhetoric. They knew they had a good song on their hands.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
daft twat wrote:Pearl Jam fans sure have a lot of money for not having day jobs.
I have neither.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
pnjguy wrote:Pearl Jam turned into Pearl Jam Inc. right before our eyes.
I bet David Cameron quietly privatised Pearl Jam while no one was looking.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
elliseamos wrote:harmless, what do you make of the cymbal work on cold confession? i like.
Yes, everything about what everyone is playing is really good in these songs. Matt still hits a couple of crashes in weird places but that's OK.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
