sward wrote:Its interesting to me to read the comments of the various characters here. I actually thought this was a board for fans of Pearl Jam, not necessarily critics of. Neither here nor there as it is the internet and this is often what message boards are all about, but I find it hard to fathom that there are so few true fans left on here. That's not to mean you have to like everything they put out. I certainly don't. But each album has enough on them that I see no reason to stop the support. I'm in the like Backspacer camp, so I guess it puts me in the minority around here an may also be why I don't share a lot of the critical opinion being bandied about. But wow. Kind of mystified at the whole thing.
I take nothing they put out seriously enough that it affects my being. I take each album as they come and pull out the pieces I enjoy and set aside the ones I don't. Every once in awhile, I give those songs another spin to see if I've changed my mind and once in awhile I have. If so..they go into my pile that I enjoy. Rinse/Repeat. I don't sit around for a nanosecond wondering why Eddie is forcing the band to play all these horrendous songs. Ha. Its silly to even write it let alone believe it. Any second on here trying to perceive what goes on within the privacy of the band is wasted.
Anyway. My two cents. I get the discussion and the dissection of all that is Pearl Jam, but I don't get the hostility.
"true fans"
Look, his point is that even here, in a bunch of threads that are pretty near unanimously celebrating two songs, they are frequently offset by 'man, this is really great, why do they have to write such shit' tags.
Yeah, and apparently have something bad to say about the band's output makes you a false fan. And in a way, he's probably right.
disagree. I'd rather be a fan that desires the band to live up to their potential
THIS.
Seriously, I don't understand how because you're a "true fan" of something that automatically means you can't "dislike" something they do, or can't be critical (constructively or otherwise). Then again, I have general distaste for the "true fan" tag, because it reeks of douchebaggery.
Criticism adds another layer of fandom. It's what allows us to discuss things, debate, get other viewpoints, etc. It's part of "art".
To throw this into a different realm... I may be a fan (a true fan if you must) of the first three Star Wars films, but does that mean I can't be critical of the shitfest known as the prequel trilogy? I have to LOVE those too, or I'm not a Star Wars fan? I think not.
fandom is overrated. I like to talk about music and bands I like, and what I don't like, especially music from a band as brilliant, frustrating and batshit insane as Pearl Jam . I don't really feel any need to walk on eggshells for worry of not appearing to be a true fan or offending the band or oversensitive fans.
stip wrote:I'm as guilty of this as the next person, but it sure is nice if we could just post about how great (or not) the new songs are for, lets say, a day or two, without turning it into a 'this is what I think sucks about the band right now' or 'now I no longer care about lightning bolt.' It's a subtle difference in tone, but it's what newcomers often comment on (or the people who lurk and don't post).
RIP Lightning Bolt DOA
Messing. I still look forward to it but these two tracks do remind me why I was/am the fanboi....
stip wrote:if they were great songs they probably wouldn't have been divisive
Ah yes. Because as history has shown us, no great art is divisive.
look, within the fanbase there ARE songs that are seemingly universally loved. Alive, Black, State of Love and Trust, Rearview Mirror, Daughter, Go, Animal, last exit, Corduroy, Immortality, Given to Fly, Do the Evolution, In My Tree, Hail Hail, Insignificance, etc.
That's my point which is valid (I think) in the context of the discussion harmless and tolumne were having (if I understood it)
I gotta disagree respectfully here. Those songs, especially on Vitalogy and No Code were extremely divisive, I would argue. Ten and Vs had fans in the multi-millions. Millions heard Vitalogy (what I consider their finest album) and they ran for the hills. Millions heard No Code out of curiosity, and they're gone forever, like 17 years ago. They left and they aren't around to articulate, but they got the heck out. Millions of people. Vitalogy and No Code were 2 of the most divisive albums of that decade. In retrospect they are sort of the bedrock of the modern fanbase, but let's not forget how much it tore apart the fanbase they had at the time. Completely splintered it to pieces into something unrecognizable, changing the entire trajectory of the band.
BurtReynolds wrote:fandom is overrated. I like to talk about music and bands I like, and what I don't like, especially music from a band as brilliant, frustrating and batshit insane as Pearl Jam . I don't really feel any need to walk on eggshells for worry of not appearing to be a true fan or offending the band or oversensitive fans.
I think this is the general consensus. This forum is a place to discuss Pearl Jam, from every perspective and angle, not a sycophantic 'fan site'. Or it could be something else.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
stip wrote:I'm as guilty of this as the next person, but it sure is nice if we could just post about how great (or not) the new songs are for, lets say, a day or two, without turning it into a 'this is what I think sucks about the band right now' or 'now I no longer care about lightning bolt.' It's a subtle difference in tone, but it's what newcomers often comment on (or the people who lurk and don't post).
This is essentially what I was saying elsewhere, only I said it really poorly.
stip wrote:I'm as guilty of this as the next person, but it sure is nice if we could just post about how great (or not) the new songs are for, lets say, a day or two, without turning it into a 'this is what I think sucks about the band right now' or 'now I no longer care about lightning bolt.' It's a subtle difference in tone, but it's what newcomers often comment on (or the people who lurk and don't post).
I'd like that, too. The problem is my reaction to these songs is made up of thinking how great these songs are and a feeling of disappointment that the band obviously made a decision to go in a different direction for most of the last decade. It isn't that I'm trying to bring down a good moment, it's that I'm finding it tough to separate those two feelings because they are both central to how I'm experiencing these songs at the moment.
"I want to see the whole picture--as nearly as I can. I don't want to put on the blinders of 'good and bad,' and limit my vision."-- In Dubious Battle
stip wrote:if they were great songs they probably wouldn't have been divisive
Ah yes. Because as history has shown us, no great art is divisive.
look, within the fanbase there ARE songs that are seemingly universally loved. Alive, Black, State of Love and Trust, Rearview Mirror, Daughter, Go, Animal, last exit, Corduroy, Immortality, Given to Fly, Do the Evolution, In My Tree, Hail Hail, Insignificance, etc.
That's my point which is valid (I think) in the context of the discussion harmless and tolumne were having (if I understood it)
I gotta disagree respectfully here. Those songs, especially on Vitalogy and No Code were extremely divisive, I would argue. Ten and Vs had fans in the multi-millions. Millions heard Vitalogy (what I consider their finest album) and they ran for the hills. Millions heard No Code out of curiosity, and they're gone forever, like 17 years ago. They left and they aren't around to articulate, but they got the heck out. Millions of people. Vitalogy and No Code were 2 of the most divisive albums of that decade. In retrospect they are sort of the bedrock of the modern fanbase, but let's not forget how much it tore apart the fanbase they had at the time. Completely splintered it to pieces into something unrecognizable, changing the entire trajectory of the band.
Thank Christ for Backspacer. Now we have those billions back and the PJ fanbase is united again.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
stip wrote:I'm as guilty of this as the next person, but it sure is nice if we could just post about how great (or not) the new songs are for, lets say, a day or two, without turning it into a 'this is what I think sucks about the band right now' or 'now I no longer care about lightning bolt.' It's a subtle difference in tone, but it's what newcomers often comment on (or the people who lurk and don't post).
I'd like that, too. The problem is my reaction to these songs is made up of thinking how great these songs are and a feeling of disappointment that the band obviously made a decision to go in a different direction for most of the last decade. It isn't that I'm trying to bring down a good moment, it's that I'm finding it tough to separate those two feelings because they are both central to how I'm experiencing these songs at the moment.
stip wrote:I'm as guilty of this as the next person, but it sure is nice if we could just post about how great (or not) the new songs are for, lets say, a day or two, without turning it into a 'this is what I think sucks about the band right now' or 'now I no longer care about lightning bolt.' It's a subtle difference in tone, but it's what newcomers often comment on (or the people who lurk and don't post).
I'd like that, too. The problem is my reaction to these songs is made up of thinking how great these songs are and a feeling of disappointment that the band obviously made a decision to go in a different direction for most of the last decade. It isn't that I'm trying to bring down a good moment, it's that I'm finding it tough to separate those two feelings because they are both central to how I'm experiencing these songs at the moment.
pretty much
Dev wrote:you're delusional. you are a sad sad person. fuck off. you're mentally ill beyond repair. i don't need your shit. dissapear.
stip wrote:if they were great songs they probably wouldn't have been divisive
Ah yes. Because as history has shown us, no great art is divisive.
look, within the fanbase there ARE songs that are seemingly universally loved. Alive, Black, State of Love and Trust, Rearview Mirror, Daughter, Go, Animal, last exit, Corduroy, Immortality, Given to Fly, Do the Evolution, In My Tree, Hail Hail, Insignificance, etc.
That's my point which is valid (I think) in the context of the discussion harmless and tolumne were having (if I understood it)
I gotta disagree respectfully here. Those songs, especially on Vitalogy and No Code were extremely divisive, I would argue. Ten and Vs had fans in the multi-millions. Millions heard Vitalogy (what I consider their finest album) and they ran for the hills. Millions heard No Code out of curiosity, and they're gone forever, like 17 years ago. They left and they aren't around to articulate, but they got the heck out. Millions of people. Vitalogy and No Code were 2 of the most divisive albums of that decade. In retrospect they are sort of the bedrock of the modern fanbase, but let's not forget how much it tore apart the fanbase they had at the time. Completely splintered it to pieces into something unrecognizable, changing the entire trajectory of the band.
Thank Christ for Backspacer. Now we have those billions back and the PJ fanbase is united again.
hahaha
Dev wrote:you're delusional. you are a sad sad person. fuck off. you're mentally ill beyond repair. i don't need your shit. dissapear.
In this case, its pretty hard to not talk about the drastic change in approach that caused these songs to be buried. Its hard to separate these songs from the very interesting time they were made. the differences between these songs and ST/BS are glaring.
stip wrote:if they were great songs they probably wouldn't have been divisive
Ah yes. Because as history has shown us, no great art is divisive.
look, within the fanbase there ARE songs that are seemingly universally loved. Alive, Black, State of Love and Trust, Rearview Mirror, Daughter, Go, Animal, last exit, Corduroy, Immortality, Given to Fly, Do the Evolution, In My Tree, Hail Hail, Insignificance, etc.
That's my point which is valid (I think) in the context of the discussion harmless and tolumne were having (if I understood it)
I gotta disagree respectfully here. Those songs, especially on Vitalogy and No Code were extremely divisive, I would argue. Ten and Vs had fans in the multi-millions. Millions heard Vitalogy (what I consider their finest album) and they ran for the hills. Millions heard No Code out of curiosity, and they're gone forever, like 17 years ago. They left and they aren't around to articulate, but they got the heck out. Millions of people. Vitalogy and No Code were 2 of the most divisive albums of that decade. In retrospect they are sort of the bedrock of the modern fanbase, but let's not forget how much it tore apart the fanbase they had at the time. Completely splintered it to pieces into something unrecognizable, changing the entire trajectory of the band.
Thank Christ for Backspacer. Now we have those billions back and the PJ fanbase is united again.
Johnny Guitar Tattoos for everyone!
There's the dog. You can't fake that stuff. Confess with your mouth.
stip wrote:I'm as guilty of this as the next person, but it sure is nice if we could just post about how great (or not) the new songs are for, lets say, a day or two, without turning it into a 'this is what I think sucks about the band right now' or 'now I no longer care about lightning bolt.' It's a subtle difference in tone, but it's what newcomers often comment on (or the people who lurk and don't post).
I'd like that, too. The problem is my reaction to these songs is made up of thinking how great these songs are and a feeling of disappointment that the band obviously made a decision to go in a different direction for most of the last decade. It isn't that I'm trying to bring down a good moment, it's that I'm finding it tough to separate those two feelings because they are both central to how I'm experiencing these songs at the moment.
A part of me is still excited about what LB might be, or sound like. I think it has potential to really surprise us. But I've said that too many times now and I guess I'm tired. Let's get back to the Lightning Bolt memes. Or we could something else.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
BurtReynolds wrote:fandom is overrated. I like to talk about music and bands I like, and what I don't like, especially music from a band as brilliant, frustrating and batshit insane as Pearl Jam . I don't really feel any need to walk on eggshells for worry of not appearing to be a true fan or offending the band or oversensitive fans.
although you apparently have to pretend like you love every song when you're in the front row
BurtReynolds wrote:fandom is overrated. I like to talk about music and bands I like, and what I don't like, especially music from a band as brilliant, frustrating and batshit insane as Pearl Jam . I don't really feel any need to walk on eggshells for worry of not appearing to be a true fan or offending the band or oversensitive fans.
I think this is the general consensus. This forum is a place to discuss Pearl Jam, from every perspective and angle, not a sycophantic 'fan site'. Or it could be something else.
I'm not actually arguing with this point. I'm a pretty reasonable person...It is likely MY perception that a lot of you (as a whole not specifically) don't even enjoy the band anymore. But it is my perception and I posted as such. I understand dissecting songs, enjoying or not enjoying them, I am not understanding MY perception that there are a lot who are doing that dissecting without actually liking any output from the band in years.
sward wrote:Its interesting to me to read the comments of the various characters here. I actually thought this was a board for fans of Pearl Jam, not necessarily critics of. Neither here nor there as it is the internet and this is often what message boards are all about, but I find it hard to fathom that there are so few true fans left on here. That's not to mean you have to like everything they put out. I certainly don't. But each album has enough on them that I see no reason to stop the support. I'm in the like Backspacer camp, so I guess it puts me in the minority around here an may also be why I don't share a lot of the critical opinion being bandied about. But wow. Kind of mystified at the whole thing.
I take nothing they put out seriously enough that it affects my being. I take each album as they come and pull out the pieces I enjoy and set aside the ones I don't. Every once in awhile, I give those songs another spin to see if I've changed my mind and once in awhile I have. If so..they go into my pile that I enjoy. Rinse/Repeat. I don't sit around for a nanosecond wondering why Eddie is forcing the band to play all these horrendous songs. Ha. Its silly to even write it let alone believe it. Any second on here trying to perceive what goes on within the privacy of the band is wasted.
Anyway. My two cents. I get the discussion and the dissection of all that is Pearl Jam, but I don't get the hostility.
"true fans"
Look, his point is that even here, in a bunch of threads that are pretty near unanimously celebrating two songs, they are frequently offset by 'man, this is really great, why do they have to write such shit' tags.
Yeah, and apparently have something bad to say about the band's output makes you a false fan. And in a way, he's probably right.
disagree. I'd rather be a fan that desires the band to live up to their potential
THIS.
Seriously, I don't understand how because you're a "true fan" of something that automatically means you can't "dislike" something they do, or can't be critical (constructively or otherwise). Then again, I have general distaste for the "true fan" tag, because it reeks of douchebaggery.
Criticism adds another layer of fandom. It's what allows us to discuss things, debate, get other viewpoints, etc. It's part of "art".
To throw this into a different realm... I may be a fan (a true fan if you must) of the first three Star Wars films, but does that mean I can't be critical of the shitfest known as the prequel trilogy? I have to LOVE those too, or I'm not a Star Wars fan? I think not.
To clear things up, what I meant by "he's probably right" is that, to me, "fan" is a word with a negative meaning. Fandom looks like something irrational that excludes critical thinking. Fans = fanboys, basically. Might sound harsh but I just don't like this notion. I'm more in line with what BurtReynolds said above. People who like PJ's music but don't look like they're always looking for reasons to like everything, I don't consider them to be what fans are and that's a good thing in my book. Unlike when someone who consider themselves a true fan calls you out for not being one.
cutuphalfdead wrote:so glad i don't see signatures
BurtReynolds wrote:fandom is overrated. I like to talk about music and bands I like, and what I don't like, especially music from a band as brilliant, frustrating and batshit insane as Pearl Jam . I don't really feel any need to walk on eggshells for worry of not appearing to be a true fan or offending the band or oversensitive fans.
although you apparently have to pretend like you love every song when you're in the front row
DOA
