sward wrote:Its interesting to me to read the comments of the various characters here. I actually thought this was a board for fans of Pearl Jam, not necessarily critics of. Neither here nor there as it is the internet and this is often what message boards are all about, but I find it hard to fathom that there are so few true fans left on here. That's not to mean you have to like everything they put out. I certainly don't. But each album has enough on them that I see no reason to stop the support. I'm in the like Backspacer camp, so I guess it puts me in the minority around here an may also be why I don't share a lot of the critical opinion being bandied about. But wow. Kind of mystified at the whole thing.
I take nothing they put out seriously enough that it affects my being. I take each album as they come and pull out the pieces I enjoy and set aside the ones I don't. Every once in awhile, I give those songs another spin to see if I've changed my mind and once in awhile I have. If so..they go into my pile that I enjoy. Rinse/Repeat. I don't sit around for a nanosecond wondering why Eddie is forcing the band to play all these horrendous songs. Ha. Its silly to even write it let alone believe it. Any second on here trying to perceive what goes on within the privacy of the band is wasted.
Anyway. My two cents. I get the discussion and the dissection of all that is Pearl Jam, but I don't get the hostility.
"true fans"
Look, his point is that even here, in a bunch of threads that are pretty near unanimously celebrating two songs, they are frequently offset by 'man, this is really great, why do they have to write such shit' tags.
Yeah, and apparently have something bad to say about the band's output makes you a false fan. And in a way, he's probably right.
disagree. I'd rather be a fan that desires the band to live up to their potential
THIS.
Seriously, I don't understand how because you're a "true fan" of something that automatically means you can't "dislike" something they do, or can't be critical (constructively or otherwise). Then again, I have general distaste for the "true fan" tag, because it reeks of douchebaggery.
Criticism adds another layer of fandom. It's what allows us to discuss things, debate, get other viewpoints, etc. It's part of "art".
To throw this into a different realm... I may be a fan (a true fan if you must) of the first three Star Wars films, but does that mean I can't be critical of the shitfest known as the prequel trilogy? I have to LOVE those too, or I'm not a Star Wars fan? I think not.
I think if you're only into it so they can fulfil their potential, you're only ever going to be disappointed cos you're measuring each release against your own demands and expectations. We don't have a say in the muse or where it takes them. It's a bit childish to get upset when they don't meet your demands. It's a hard choice bit an easier time will be had if you just try go with them and enjoy the journey.
All the complaining cos PJ didn't do what we each wanted them to, is ridiculous. .
stip wrote:if they were great songs they probably wouldn't have been divisive
Ah yes. Because as history has shown us, no great art is divisive.
look, within the fanbase there ARE songs that are seemingly universally loved. Alive, Black, State of Love and Trust, Rearview Mirror, Daughter, Go, Animal, last exit, Corduroy, Immortality, Given to Fly, Do the Evolution, In My Tree, Hail Hail, Insignificance, etc.
That's my point which is valid (I think) in the context of the discussion harmless and tolumne were having (if I understood it)
I gotta disagree respectfully here. Those songs, especially on Vitalogy and No Code were extremely divisive, I would argue. Ten and Vs had fans in the multi-millions. Millions heard Vitalogy (what I consider their finest album) and they ran for the hills. Millions heard No Code out of curiosity, and they're gone forever, like 17 years ago. They left and they aren't around to articulate, but they got the heck out. Millions of people. Vitalogy and No Code were 2 of the most divisive albums of that decade. In retrospect they are sort of the bedrock of the modern fanbase, but let's not forget how much it tore apart the fanbase they had at the time. Completely splintered it to pieces into something unrecognizable, changing the entire trajectory of the band.
Thank Christ for Backspacer. Now we have those billions back and the PJ fanbase is united again.
I see the point your making, but I think they went about it in a fairly genuine way. They could have gone the Aerosmith route and hired pop songwriters and made appearances with the teen idols fawning over them in order to grab a "new genration". But they simply made as melodic, concise, and hooky music as they could with bp. It did penetrate a subsection of fans/potential fans who had the band at arms length. This is why I call it a "moderate" success.
sward wrote:Its interesting to me to read the comments of the various characters here. I actually thought this was a board for fans of Pearl Jam, not necessarily critics of. Neither here nor there as it is the internet and this is often what message boards are all about, but I find it hard to fathom that there are so few true fans left on here. That's not to mean you have to like everything they put out. I certainly don't. But each album has enough on them that I see no reason to stop the support. I'm in the like Backspacer camp, so I guess it puts me in the minority around here an may also be why I don't share a lot of the critical opinion being bandied about. But wow. Kind of mystified at the whole thing.
I take nothing they put out seriously enough that it affects my being. I take each album as they come and pull out the pieces I enjoy and set aside the ones I don't. Every once in awhile, I give those songs another spin to see if I've changed my mind and once in awhile I have. If so..they go into my pile that I enjoy. Rinse/Repeat. I don't sit around for a nanosecond wondering why Eddie is forcing the band to play all these horrendous songs. Ha. Its silly to even write it let alone believe it. Any second on here trying to perceive what goes on within the privacy of the band is wasted.
Anyway. My two cents. I get the discussion and the dissection of all that is Pearl Jam, but I don't get the hostility.
"true fans"
Look, his point is that even here, in a bunch of threads that are pretty near unanimously celebrating two songs, they are frequently offset by 'man, this is really great, why do they have to write such shit' tags.
Yeah, and apparently have something bad to say about the band's output makes you a false fan. And in a way, he's probably right.
disagree. I'd rather be a fan that desires the band to live up to their potential
THIS.
Seriously, I don't understand how because you're a "true fan" of something that automatically means you can't "dislike" something they do, or can't be critical (constructively or otherwise). Then again, I have general distaste for the "true fan" tag, because it reeks of douchebaggery.
Criticism adds another layer of fandom. It's what allows us to discuss things, debate, get other viewpoints, etc. It's part of "art".
To throw this into a different realm... I may be a fan (a true fan if you must) of the first three Star Wars films, but does that mean I can't be critical of the shitfest known as the prequel trilogy? I have to LOVE those too, or I'm not a Star Wars fan? I think not.
I think if you're only into it so they can fulfil their potential, you're only ever going to be disappointed cos you're measuring each release against your own demands and expectations. We don't have a say in the muse or where it takes them. It's a bit childish to get upset when they don't meet your demands. It's a hard choice bit an easier time will be had if you just try go with them and enjoy the journey.
All the complaining cos PJ didn't do what we each wanted them to, is ridiculous. .
ok, now I need to go have a temper tantrum.
Dev wrote:you're delusional. you are a sad sad person. fuck off. you're mentally ill beyond repair. i don't need your shit. dissapear.
BurtReynolds wrote:fandom is overrated. I like to talk about music and bands I like, and what I don't like, especially music from a band as brilliant, frustrating and batshit insane as Pearl Jam . I don't really feel any need to walk on eggshells for worry of not appearing to be a true fan or offending the band or oversensitive fans.
I think this is the general consensus. This forum is a place to discuss Pearl Jam, from every perspective and angle, not a sycophantic 'fan site'. Or it could be something else.
is it? I guess its a little of everything. Tolerating different viewpoints is the tricky part.
stip wrote:if they were great songs they probably wouldn't have been divisive
Ah yes. Because as history has shown us, no great art is divisive.
look, within the fanbase there ARE songs that are seemingly universally loved. Alive, Black, State of Love and Trust, Rearview Mirror, Daughter, Go, Animal, last exit, Corduroy, Immortality, Given to Fly, Do the Evolution, In My Tree, Hail Hail, Insignificance, etc.
That's my point which is valid (I think) in the context of the discussion harmless and tolumne were having (if I understood it)
I gotta disagree respectfully here. Those songs, especially on Vitalogy and No Code were extremely divisive, I would argue. Ten and Vs had fans in the multi-millions. Millions heard Vitalogy (what I consider their finest album) and they ran for the hills. Millions heard No Code out of curiosity, and they're gone forever, like 17 years ago. They left and they aren't around to articulate, but they got the heck out. Millions of people. Vitalogy and No Code were 2 of the most divisive albums of that decade. In retrospect they are sort of the bedrock of the modern fanbase, but let's not forget how much it tore apart the fanbase they had at the time. Completely splintered it to pieces into something unrecognizable, changing the entire trajectory of the band.
Thank Christ for Backspacer. Now we have those billions back and the PJ fanbase is united again.
I see the point your making, but I think they went about it in a fairly genuine way. They could have gone the Aerosmith route and hired pop songwriters and made appearances with the teen idols fawning over them in order to grab a "new genration". But they simply made as melodic, concise, and hooky music as they could with bp. It did penetrate a subsection of fans/potential fans who had the band at arms length. This is why I call it a "moderate" success.
They whored out Backspacer more than I've seen them do with any other album to date.
There's the dog. You can't fake that stuff. Confess with your mouth.
BurtReynolds wrote:fandom is overrated. I like to talk about music and bands I like, and what I don't like, especially music from a band as brilliant, frustrating and batshit insane as Pearl Jam . I don't really feel any need to walk on eggshells for worry of not appearing to be a true fan or offending the band or oversensitive fans.
I think this is the general consensus. This forum is a place to discuss Pearl Jam, from every perspective and angle, not a sycophantic 'fan site'. Or it could be something else.
is it? I guess its a little of everything. Tolerating different viewpoints is the tricky part.
AT least we talk about the music here.
There's the dog. You can't fake that stuff. Confess with your mouth.
His first couple of posts were amazing. Then he got a bit too experimental, and I think half the people here turned on him. Then he got too loud and in your face, but he won me over with some old material he'd been sitting on for a while.
sward wrote:Its interesting to me to read the comments of the various characters here. I actually thought this was a board for fans of Pearl Jam, not necessarily critics of. Neither here nor there as it is the internet and this is often what message boards are all about, but I find it hard to fathom that there are so few true fans left on here. That's not to mean you have to like everything they put out. I certainly don't. But each album has enough on them that I see no reason to stop the support. I'm in the like Backspacer camp, so I guess it puts me in the minority around here an may also be why I don't share a lot of the critical opinion being bandied about. But wow. Kind of mystified at the whole thing.
I take nothing they put out seriously enough that it affects my being. I take each album as they come and pull out the pieces I enjoy and set aside the ones I don't. Every once in awhile, I give those songs another spin to see if I've changed my mind and once in awhile I have. If so..they go into my pile that I enjoy. Rinse/Repeat. I don't sit around for a nanosecond wondering why Eddie is forcing the band to play all these horrendous songs. Ha. Its silly to even write it let alone believe it. Any second on here trying to perceive what goes on within the privacy of the band is wasted.
Anyway. My two cents. I get the discussion and the dissection of all that is Pearl Jam, but I don't get the hostility.
"true fans"
Look, his point is that even here, in a bunch of threads that are pretty near unanimously celebrating two songs, they are frequently offset by 'man, this is really great, why do they have to write such shit' tags.
Yeah, and apparently have something bad to say about the band's output makes you a false fan. And in a way, he's probably right.
disagree. I'd rather be a fan that desires the band to live up to their potential
THIS.
Seriously, I don't understand how because you're a "true fan" of something that automatically means you can't "dislike" something they do, or can't be critical (constructively or otherwise). Then again, I have general distaste for the "true fan" tag, because it reeks of douchebaggery.
Criticism adds another layer of fandom. It's what allows us to discuss things, debate, get other viewpoints, etc. It's part of "art".
To throw this into a different realm... I may be a fan (a true fan if you must) of the first three Star Wars films, but does that mean I can't be critical of the shitfest known as the prequel trilogy? I have to LOVE those too, or I'm not a Star Wars fan? I think not.
To clear things up, what I meant by "he's probably right" is that, to me, "fan" is a word with a negative meaning. Fandom looks like something irrational that excludes critical thinking. Fans = fanboys, basically. Might sound harsh but I just don't like this notion. I'm more in line with what BurtReynolds said above. People who like PJ's music but don't look like they're always looking for reasons to like everything, I don't consider them to be what fans are and that's a good thing in my book. Unlike when someone who consider themselves a true fan calls you out for not being one.
Well, not going to lie...wish I didn't type 'True Fan' there because in the spirit you all have taken it, is not how I meant it.
Many would say I'm not a true fan in the way most look at it. I see one show per tour on average. Sometimes none. When I do, I don't hold my hand up in the various ways people do making gestures, I have never bought a poster, I don't wear a PJ shirt to the shows, I don't wait outside the arena after the played..etc.. etc..
So yeah..I get what you are saying and my bad in describing the scenario using that term.
sward wrote:Its interesting to me to read the comments of the various characters here. I actually thought this was a board for fans of Pearl Jam, not necessarily critics of. Neither here nor there as it is the internet and this is often what message boards are all about, but I find it hard to fathom that there are so few true fans left on here. That's not to mean you have to like everything they put out. I certainly don't. But each album has enough on them that I see no reason to stop the support. I'm in the like Backspacer camp, so I guess it puts me in the minority around here an may also be why I don't share a lot of the critical opinion being bandied about. But wow. Kind of mystified at the whole thing.
I take nothing they put out seriously enough that it affects my being. I take each album as they come and pull out the pieces I enjoy and set aside the ones I don't. Every once in awhile, I give those songs another spin to see if I've changed my mind and once in awhile I have. If so..they go into my pile that I enjoy. Rinse/Repeat. I don't sit around for a nanosecond wondering why Eddie is forcing the band to play all these horrendous songs. Ha. Its silly to even write it let alone believe it. Any second on here trying to perceive what goes on within the privacy of the band is wasted.
Anyway. My two cents. I get the discussion and the dissection of all that is Pearl Jam, but I don't get the hostility.
"true fans"
Look, his point is that even here, in a bunch of threads that are pretty near unanimously celebrating two songs, they are frequently offset by 'man, this is really great, why do they have to write such shit' tags.
Yeah, and apparently have something bad to say about the band's output makes you a false fan. And in a way, he's probably right.
disagree. I'd rather be a fan that desires the band to live up to their potential
THIS.
Seriously, I don't understand how because you're a "true fan" of something that automatically means you can't "dislike" something they do, or can't be critical (constructively or otherwise). Then again, I have general distaste for the "true fan" tag, because it reeks of douchebaggery.
Criticism adds another layer of fandom. It's what allows us to discuss things, debate, get other viewpoints, etc. It's part of "art".
To throw this into a different realm... I may be a fan (a true fan if you must) of the first three Star Wars films, but does that mean I can't be critical of the shitfest known as the prequel trilogy? I have to LOVE those too, or I'm not a Star Wars fan? I think not.
To clear things up, what I meant by "he's probably right" is that, to me, "fan" is a word with a negative meaning. Fandom looks like something irrational that excludes critical thinking. Fans = fanboys, basically. Might sound harsh but I just don't like this notion. I'm more in line with what BurtReynolds said above. People who like PJ's music but don't look like they're always looking for reasons to like everything, I don't consider them to be what fans are and that's a good thing in my book. Unlike when someone who consider themselves a true fan calls you out for not being one.
Well, not going to lie...wish I didn't type 'True Fan' there because in the spirit you all have taken it, is not how I meant it.
Many would say I'm not a true fan in the way most look at it. I see one show per tour on average. Sometimes none. When I do, I don't hold my hand up in the various ways people do making gestures, I have never bought a poster, I don't wear a PJ shirt to the shows, I don't wait outside the arena after the played..etc.. etc..
So yeah..I get what you are saying and my bad in describing the scenario using that term.
I've never equated fandom with the amount of $$$ I spend on a band.
There's the dog. You can't fake that stuff. Confess with your mouth.
The complaining about complaining about complaining ad infinitum is what makes this place a mess more than anything, if someone posts something overwhelmingly negative, then post a positive counter argument or something to swing things back to a more balanced discussion. If you feel positive about the band/album/song then post about that instead of complaining about negativity, cause all your doing otherwise is creating more negativity when.you could be creating a more positive vibe. Christ.
Last edited by stupidmop on Tue July 23, 2013 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
stupidmop wrote:The complaining about complaining about complaining ad infinitum is what makes this place a mess more than anything, if someone posts something overwhelmingly negative, then post a positive counter argument or something to swing things back to a more balanced discussion. If you feel positive about the band/album/song then post about that instead of complaining about negativity, cause all your doing otherwise is creating more negativity when.you could be creating a more positive vibe. Christ.
Tuolumne wrote:
stip wrote:
theplatypus wrote:
stip wrote:if they were great songs they probably wouldn't have been divisive
Ah yes. Because as history has shown us, no great art is divisive.
look, within the fanbase there ARE songs that are seemingly universally loved. Alive, Black, State of Love and Trust, Rearview Mirror, Daughter, Go, Animal, last exit, Corduroy, Immortality, Given to Fly, Do the Evolution, In My Tree, Hail Hail, Insignificance, etc.
That's my point which is valid (I think) in the context of the discussion harmless and tolumne were having (if I understood it)
I gotta disagree respectfully here. Those songs, especially on Vitalogy and No Code were extremely divisive, I would argue. Ten and Vs had fans in the multi-millions. Millions heard Vitalogy (what I consider their finest album) and they ran for the hills. Millions heard No Code out of curiosity, and they're gone forever, like 17 years ago. They left and they aren't around to articulate, but they got the heck out. Millions of people. Vitalogy and No Code were 2 of the most divisive albums of that decade. In retrospect they are sort of the bedrock of the modern fanbase, but let's not forget how much it tore apart the fanbase they had at the time. Completely splintered it to pieces into something unrecognizable, changing the entire trajectory of the band.
For an album to be successful to you does it have to be non devisive and loved by everyone then? Or if the next pj album produced 3 no1s would you regard it as a good album, irregardless of anything else?
I like the mess here . WHATS YOUR PROBLEM MAN?
There's the dog. You can't fake that stuff. Confess with your mouth.
