The 45th POTUS - Donald J. Trump

[tragabigzanda]

Also, just for argument's sake, let's say all the women involved are 100% free of any charges of complicity, and the men should all eat dicks as Strat suggested...

Joey, going back to your initial post, where does Quentin Tarantino stand for you now? Will you still pay to see his movies?

[epilogue]

You're asking the wrong person because I don't pay to see his movies now. Never have, can't imagine that changing. I haven't even seen his last couple, let alone paid for them.

[Bi_3]

Why am I not surprised that trag is finding problems with the behavior of victims of sexual abuse?

Because your liberal bias is making it difficult for you to be somewhat rational here. Someone who was merely propositioned to trade sexual favors for work, rejected that proposition and escaped safely, and then went on to have a hugely successful career is not the same league of victim as one who was raped.

This is exactly wrong, trag. You have to get your head around that before we can have this conversation.

Why is trag wrong there? He's clearly not saying either is acceptable. And the type of offer he suggests, while an immoral abuse of power and should never, ever, ever occur, is not rape or even battery.

[Strat]

Why am I not surprised that trag is finding problems with the behavior of victims of sexual abuse?

Because your liberal bias is making it difficult for you to be somewhat rational here. Someone who was merely propositioned to trade sexual favors for work, rejected that proposition and escaped safely, and then went on to have a hugely successful career is not the same league of victim as one who was raped.

This is exactly wrong, trag. You have to get your head around that before we can have this conversation.

Why is trag wrong there? He's clearly not saying either is acceptable. And the type of offer he suggests, while an immoral abuse of power and should never, ever, ever occur, is not rape or even battery.

In the legal concept, but tell that to any woman who has dealt with it.

[tragabigzanda]

You're asking the wrong person because I don't pay to see his movies now. Never have, can't imagine that changing. I haven't even seen his last couple, let alone paid for them.

Whatever, pick any of the other male parties involved in this fiasco. Matt Damon? Ben Affleck? I just thought it was interesting that for someone who has demonstrated a willingness to separate the art from the artist, your indictment of everyone surrounding Trump was unilateral in its blame: "They're all guilty" seemed to be the point of your message.

What if John Kelly sees himself as protecting the world from a deranged mad man (Trump)?
What if Kellyanne Conway's dream is to turn her fame and Whitehouse experience into a platform for women?
What if Rex Tillerson is busting his ass trying to maintain an equilibrium between our fundamental dependence on oil and our fundamental need for renewable energy?

I don't actually think any of that is true (John Kelly, perhaps). But the concept of "the ends justifying the means" is what's interesting to me here. Does QT get a pass on Weinstein because he made Kill Bill, a popular movie that features a strong female lead?

[Strat]

And this all right here - is exactly why women don't speak up.

Men should really just shut the fuck up about these issues.

[Strat]

You're asking the wrong person because I don't pay to see his movies now. Never have, can't imagine that changing. I haven't even seen his last couple, let alone paid for them.

Whatever, pick any of the other male parties involved in this fiasco. Matt Damon? Ben Affleck? I just thought it was interesting that for someone who has demonstrated a willingness to separate the art from the artist, your indictment of everyone surrounding Trump was unilateral in its blame: "They're all guilty" seemed to be the point of your message.

What if John Kelly sees himself as protecting the world from a deranged mad man (Trump)?
What if Kellyanne Conway's dream is to turn her fame and Whitehouse experience into a platform for women?
What if Rex Tillerson is busting his ass trying to maintain an equilibrium between our fundamental dependence on oil and our fundamental need for renewable energy?

I don't actually think any of that is true (John Kelly, perhaps). But the concept of "the ends justifying the means" is what's interesting to me here. Does QT get a pass on Weinstein because he made Kill Bill, a popular movie that features a strong female lead?

No, but one major difference i can speak of here - for me -is one is entertainment and a fucking movie and the rest is the well being of the modern world.

QT should absolutely feel shame and do everything in his power moving forward to changing this culture.

Also, i too haven't seen many of his recent films.

[tragabigzanda]

And this all right here - is exactly why women don't speak up.

Men should really just shut the fuck up about these issues.

BUT THAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM! In the wake of the Weinstein scandal, it seems like a number of people have said "I knew of a first-hand account, but didn't speak up because the victim didn't want me to." Because why? Because they wanted to maintain their career trajectory? So now the victim is culpable for the next victim, and the male friend gets to shrug his shoulders and say "Well, she didn't want me to say anything, so I'm off the hook..."

I get that this is somewhat tone deaf; I understand the fundamental need for victims to share their stories on their terms, on their own timeline. But my gut tells me that understanding should extend mostly to victims of violent or highly traumatic sexual assault; this sort of grey-area victim, the "he propositioned me but then I left" victim, do you guys really think they have been so emotionally incapacitated by those propositions that they couldn't think or act clearly with regard to the safety of potential future victims?

[epilogue]

Why am I not surprised that trag is finding problems with the behavior of victims of sexual abuse?

Because your liberal bias is making it difficult for you to be somewhat rational here. Someone who was merely propositioned to trade sexual favors for work, rejected that proposition and escaped safely, and then went on to have a hugely successful career is not the same league of victim as one who was raped.

This is exactly wrong, trag. You have to get your head around that before we can have this conversation.

Why is trag wrong there? He's clearly not saying either is acceptable. And the type of offer he suggests, while an immoral abuse of power, is not rape or even battery.

It's still abuse. It's assault. It's unacceptable. Thinking that some arbitrary level of degree matters or makes any kind of difference is ignorance. Shrugging off one because it's not as bad as the other is troublesome. It's wrong thinking. It's dangerous and it's part of what has given us this current culture. It's backward.

[tragabigzanda]

I feel like Burt is lurking, when I could really use his support here.

[bune]

I wonder if QT will pull a Kev Smith?

Kevin Smith is donating his Weinstein residuals to a charity for women in filmmaking

[Strat]

And this all right here - is exactly why women don't speak up.

Men should really just shut the fuck up about these issues.

BUT THAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM! In the wake of the Weinstein scandal, it seems like a number of people have said "I knew of a first-hand account, but didn't speak up because the victim didn't want me to." Because why? Because they wanted to maintain their career trajectory? So now the victim is culpable for the next victim, and the male friend gets to shrug his shoulders and say "Well, she didn't want me to say anything, so I'm off the hook..."

I get that this is somewhat tone deaf; I understand the fundamental need for victims to share their stories on their terms, on their own timeline. But my gut tells me that understanding should extend mostly to victims of violent or highly traumatic sexual assault; this sort of grey-area victim, the "he propositioned me but then I left" victim, do you guys really think they have been so emotionally incapacitated by those propositions that they couldn't think or act clearly with regard to the safety of potential future victims?

This is aggravating. This is the man telling a woman that she shouldn't feel so violated because "oh others had it worse". What the fuck is that? Women speak up and this is the response they get. It creates that trucking culture. Men questioning them like this. That is bullshit trag and you are obviously a better dude than that. Maybe you are just playing devils advocate but for what?

[E.H. Ruddock]

who knows everything with Paltrow but her? Maybe it happened so many times that it her norm became "the only way I'll be successful is to not speak about this, because the men in this industry have all the power"?

It surely isn't for me to decide that she had it "easier" because it wasn't physical abuse.

[tragabigzanda]

And this all right here - is exactly why women don't speak up.

Men should really just shut the fuck up about these issues.

BUT THAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM! In the wake of the Weinstein scandal, it seems like a number of people have said "I knew of a first-hand account, but didn't speak up because the victim didn't want me to." Because why? Because they wanted to maintain their career trajectory? So now the victim is culpable for the next victim, and the male friend gets to shrug his shoulders and say "Well, she didn't want me to say anything, so I'm off the hook..."

I get that this is somewhat tone deaf; I understand the fundamental need for victims to share their stories on their terms, on their own timeline. But my gut tells me that understanding should extend mostly to victims of violent or highly traumatic sexual assault; this sort of grey-area victim, the "he propositioned me but then I left" victim, do you guys really think they have been so emotionally incapacitated by those propositions that they couldn't think or act clearly with regard to the safety of potential future victims?

This is aggravating. This is the man telling a woman that she shouldn't feel so violated because "oh others had it worse". What the fuck is that? Women speak up and this is the response they get. It creates that trucking culture. Men questioning them like this. That is bullshit trag and you are obviously a better dude than that. Maybe you are just playing devils advocate but for what?

Well, I guess what I'm asking is: Would a little tough love possibly help this culture that is ingrained in our society? Rather than providing an endless shoulder to cry on for people who are able to reject the inappropriate advances of a superior, should we be holding them accountable? I think it's a fair question, and I don't believe that asking the question makes me bad or insensitive.

[tragabigzanda]

who knows everything with Paltrow but her? Maybe it happened so many times that it her norm became "the only way I'll be successful is to not speak about this, because the men in this industry have all the power"?

It surely isn't for me to decide that she had it "easier" because it wasn't physical abuse.

I mean, her mom is Blythe Danner; I'm sure she was aware of the culture from a very young age.

[Bi_3]

who knows everything with Paltrow but her? Maybe it happened so many times that it her norm became "the only way I'll be successful is to not speak about this, because the men in this industry have all the power"?

It surely isn't for me to decide that she had it "easier" because it wasn't physical abuse.

I mean, her mom is Blythe Danner; I'm sure she was aware of the culture from a very young age.

I was about to white knight you here bro, but you gotta know when to stop digging.

[bune]

who knows everything with Paltrow but her? Maybe it happened so many times that it her norm became "the only way I'll be successful is to not speak about this, because the men in this industry have all the power"?

It surely isn't for me to decide that she had it "easier" because it wasn't physical abuse.

I mean, her mom is Blythe Danner; I'm sure she was aware of the culture from a very young age.

[Strat]

Trag is one less ice cream away from telling us its a womans fault for being raped. I think. maybe.

[Strat]

YES THEY DESERVE TO DIE AN I HOPE THEY BURN IN HELL!

[tragabigzanda]

who knows everything with Paltrow but her? Maybe it happened so many times that it her norm became "the only way I'll be successful is to not speak about this, because the men in this industry have all the power"?

It surely isn't for me to decide that she had it "easier" because it wasn't physical abuse.

I mean, her mom is Blythe Danner; I'm sure she was aware of the culture from a very young age.

I was about to white knight you here bro, but you gotta know when to stop digging.

I wasn't implying anything at all, simply stating that Ms. Paltrow's experience with Harvey was likely not her first rodeo.