Star Wars: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

[VinylGuy]

Oh cool.

[Strat]

Laura Dern’s character was a straight-up asshole dummy. SHE GAINED NOTHING FROM NOT DIVULGING HER PLAN, WHAT A STUPID THING, I’M GLAD SHE DIED THE BIG DUMMY

That's something I didn't quite understand either. Why didn't they trust Poe? Were they further punishing him? Why treat him like a child?

Because Poe was a cocky pilot who’s gotten a lot of their fighters killed because he refuses to listen orders and follow the chain of command.

This is his journey and he learns this by the end of the film. How do people miss this context ?

[VinylGuy]

Because its not handled right...They dont tell Poe just in order to keep the storytelling moving, not because he is cocky.

[stip]

Laura Dern’s character was a straight-up asshole dummy. SHE GAINED NOTHING FROM NOT DIVULGING HER PLAN, WHAT A STUPID THING, I’M GLAD SHE DIED THE BIG DUMMY

That's something I didn't quite understand either. Why didn't they trust Poe? Were they further punishing him? Why treat him like a child?

Because Poe was a cocky pilot who’s gotten a lot of their fighters killed because he refuses to listen orders and follow the chain of command.

This is his journey and he learns this by the end of the film. How do people miss this context ?

Why should she tell some arrogant shit who just caused a disaster? That's not how military hierarchies work.

[stip]

Because its not handled right...They dont tell Poe just in order to keep the storytelling moving, not because he is cocky.

Actually they specifically do that very thing.

[Monkey_Driven]

Laura Dern’s character was a straight-up asshole dummy. SHE GAINED NOTHING FROM NOT DIVULGING HER PLAN, WHAT A STUPID THING, I’M GLAD SHE DIED THE BIG DUMMY

That's something I didn't quite understand either. Why didn't they trust Poe? Were they further punishing him? Why treat him like a child?

Because Poe was a cocky pilot who’s gotten a lot of their fighters killed because he refuses to listen orders and follow the chain of command.

This is his journey and he learns this by the end of the film. How do people miss this context ?

I thought this was obvious too. One could argue how well it was executed however.

[stip]

we hate movies has a fun podcast review of this

[VinylGuy]

Because its not handled right...They dont tell Poe just in order to keep the storytelling moving, not because he is cocky.

Actually they specifically do that very thing.

The cocky thing is a very poorly excuse. They need Poe not to know because basically there is no story if they tell him.

Cmon guys.

[Strat]

Because its not handled right...They dont tell Poe just in order to keep the storytelling moving, not because he is cocky.

Actually they specifically do that very thing.

The cocky thing is a very poorly excuse. They need Poe not to know because basically there is no story if they tell him.

Cmon guys.

That's a strange leap you just made.

[E.H. Ruddock]

I'll expand on my non-descriptive list from my original post:

Plasma: I get the idea of introducing a "cool" looking character (see: Boba Fett), but what is the point? There are plenty of "cool" looking guards, etc. And was it so Finn could have a sworn enemy? Because if so, it was a short and one-sided conflict. Shining example of a character there just to sell merchandise, imo.

Snoke: Oh man, wtf. Here is this supreme leader, really strong in the force. Also, knowledgeable in the force and it's history. Who is he? Who trained him on the dark side? How did he find Kylo? All REALLY cool topics that would have been fun to find out. But nope, let's just slice him in half. Bye Felicia! JFC.

Canto Bight: After sleeping on it, I don't mind this as much. I kind of get and appreciate the throwback to the prequels, so the outlandishness of the characters there kind of fits. I'm ok with it now, and actually was refreshing to get out of that space chase and off the island.

Poe: I get that he had his "discovery" in this film, but he really didn't do anything. Even in the first battle, after he took out the surface guns, he just kind of floated there hoping that Rose's sister got those bombs dropped. Then just a little arguing with Leia and Holdo until he wakes up on the way to Crait. Almost like "we didn't expect him to be this popular in the first film, but I guess he has to be in the second one now.

Finn: Would have been MUCH more interesting had he actually ran away in that escape pod, and then found some kind of meaning and redemption on his own.

The humor with Hux didn't work for me. He's the Loki of the Star Wars movies, only with a way worse actor.

Listen, I'm a lifelong, HUGE Star Wars fan, so I say this with great respect. Carrie's acting was awful. I don't think this was all her fault. It was almost like the just wrote some lines for her just because she had to be in the movie. Like, "Yeah, I guess this would be a good place for her to say a sentence" kind of thing.

[stip]

Because its not handled right...They dont tell Poe just in order to keep the storytelling moving, not because he is cocky.

Actually they specifically do that very thing.

The cocky thing is a very poorly excuse. They need Poe not to know because basically there is no story if they tell him.

Cmon guys.

Poe Dameron's arc is a challenge to the traditional top gun/play by your own rules/follow your gut hero archetype. He disobeys leia's order and while he destroys the dreadnaught their entire bombing fleet gets destroyed in the process. Leia isn't pleased, and she demotes him and makes the reference to no heroes, just dead soliders (or something like that - I don't have that right). All Holodo knows about him is that he has a reputation for being overly daring (not what was needed with her careful plan), that Leia (who she trusts) just demoted him, and that he is in an agitated state where his response is unpredictable. He's not the second in command (yet). He's an excellent pilot. Plus who knows if there are spies, who else is listening, etc. The Empire is tracking their light speed. It isn't a stretch to imagine a man on the inside or some other source of information.

We expect her to tell Poe because we like him and he's important in the narrative, but being a main character in a movie doesn't change your rank in a hierarchical organization. Holdo's decision to not tell him is

A: the right thing to do from her perspective
B: Part of Poe's arc - he ignores the commands of someone he knows is a war hero and has Leia's trust, and as a result of his actions he actually ends up getting most of the resistance killed. It's what helps him realize at the end that leadership is not about glory - it's about keeping the team together.

If Holdo tells Poe her plan it undercuts his arc in the movie

[Anders]

Poe's story in the movie was sort of weak. But it will probably set him up to be the new leader of the resistance.

My memory is a bit fuzzy about the first attack, but wasn't the main plan to destroy the dreadnought, and they managed to do exactly that? No way those strange bombers were going to survive flying into the battle like that. Yes, he did defy Leia at one point, but what was Leia's plan?

[Strat]

Poe's story in the movie was sort of weak. But it will probably set him up to be the new leader of the resistance.

My memory is a bit fuzzy about the first attack, but wasn't the main plan to destroy the dreadnought, and they managed to do exactly that? No way those strange bombers were going to survive flying into the battle like that. Yes, he did defy Leia at one point, but what was Leia's plan?

Main plan was to take the guns out. he accomplished that, lei told him to pull back, he continued on and got many killed.

[VinylGuy]

Poe´s ¨arc¨is basically to wait there. She doesnt tell him anything in order to keep the viewer to think she might be evil. Its pretty obvious.

[Anders]

Poe's story in the movie was sort of weak. But it will probably set him up to be the new leader of the resistance.

My memory is a bit fuzzy about the first attack, but wasn't the main plan to destroy the dreadnought, and they managed to do exactly that? No way those strange bombers were going to survive flying into the battle like that. Yes, he did defy Leia at one point, but what was Leia's plan?

Main plan was to take the guns out. he accomplished that, lei told him to pull back, he continued on and got many killed.

OK. Thank you.

[stip]

I'll expand on my non-descriptive list from my original post:

Plasma: I get the idea of introducing a "cool" looking character (see: Boba Fett), but what is the point? There are plenty of "cool" looking guards, etc. And was it so Finn could have a sworn enemy? Because if so, it was a short and one-sided conflict. Shining example of a character there just to sell merchandise, imo.

This is exactly what Boba Fett was (and characters existing to sell merchandise has been there since A New Hope). If anything at least Phasma gets some lines. And again, Phasma is not a principle. she's a mini boss/henchman. Golden Eye didn't suffer because we didn't get Xenia Onotop's backstory. She is exactly what she should be for this movie. They'll expand on her in EU material, if they haven't already.

Snoke: Oh man, wtf. Here is this supreme leader, really strong in the force. Also, knowledgeable in the force and it's history. Who is he? Who trained him on the dark side? How did he find Kylo? All REALLY cool topics that would have been fun to find out. But nope, let's just slice him in half. Bye Felicia! JFC.

Again, how is that any different from the Emperor in the OT except this is in movie two instead of movie three? You could sub out the word Snoke for emperor and it is identical. We don't even learn the Emperor's name is Palpetine until the prequels, outside of EU material.

Poe: I get that he had his "discovery" in this film, but he really didn't do anything. Even in the first battle, after he took out the surface guns, he just kind of floated there hoping that Rose's sister got those bombs dropped. Then just a little arguing with Leia and Holdo until he wakes up on the way to Crait. Almost like "we didn't expect him to be this popular in the first film, but I guess he has to be in the second one now.

He is a a pretty major character in this film (probably 5th overall, but not everyone can get equal screen time). But Poe's role in this story wasn't to 'do stuff'. It was to 'learn stuff' especially as he is obviously being groomed to be Leia's successor (and doubly so now, sadly).

Almost all of the action in this movie is actually related to character development - and if the action scene isn't serving the development it doesn't happen. Poe has the dreadnaught inciting incident (there wasn't anything else he could do after taking out the guns, and what else does he need to do in that scene), and then the film takes the deliberate step of forcibly grounding him by destroying his X-wing so he can't do anything and has to learn how to deal with being powerless.

Finn: Would have been MUCH more interesting had he actually ran away in that escape pod, and then found some kind of meaning and redemption on his own.

Finn's story is about commitment, and he needs to be around other people for that conversation to mean anything.

The humor with Hux didn't work for me. He's the Loki of the Star Wars movies, only with a way worse actor.

Fair enough. The actor is doing what he can with the material but I'm not totally sold on him either.

Listen, I'm a lifelong, HUGE Star Wars fan, so I say this with great respect. Carrie's acting was awful. I don't think this was all her fault. It was almost like the just wrote some lines for her just because she had to be in the movie. Like, "Yeah, I guess this would be a good place for her to say a sentence" kind of thing.

Fair enough - I think she's a lot better in this than in TFA but she hasn't been nearly as compelling (to me) as Mark Hamill or Harrison Ford.

[stip]

Poe´s ¨arc¨is basically to wait there. She doesnt tell him anything in order to keep the viewer to think she might be evil. Its pretty obvious.

His arc is basically to wait there because that's what he has to do to learn, and given his character it's the most difficult situation he can be placed in. His solution to every problem is to 'get into an X-wing and blow something up.' What happens when that gets taken away from him?

There is the added benefit of turning the audience against Holdo because we sympathize with Poe and are trained to assume that the hotshot lead is always correct, and that information is only withheld due to sinister motivations. That expectation is what introduces the dramatic tension into those scenes and makes her reveal (and Leia's 'betryal' of Poe) powerful.

What makes it good writing is that there is also, within the confines of the text, an internally plausible and logically consistent reason for the character to act that way.

[Monkey_Driven]

Poe´s ¨arc¨is basically to wait there. She doesnt tell him anything in order to keep the viewer to think she might be evil. Its pretty obvious.

His arc is basically to wait there because that's what he has to do to learn, and given his character it's the most difficult situation he can be placed in. His solution to every problem is to 'get into an X-wing and blow something up.' What happens when that gets taken away from him?

There is the added benefit of turning the audience against Holdo because we sympathize with Poe and are trained to assume that the hotshot lead is always correct, and that information is only withheld due to sinister motivations. That expectation is what introduces the dramatic tension into those scenes and makes her reveal (and Leia's 'betryal' of Poe) powerful.

What makes it good writing is that there is also, within the confines of the text, an internally plausible and logically consistent reason for the character to act that way.

This.

[dimejinky99]

Just catching up on all your thoughts. Some good takes guys.

I’m with LV on one thing.

This film feels weirdly small. It’s like a season finale of a tv show rather than a Star Wars film.

It could be it that it echoes battlestar galactica a bit, the resistance being chased and even some of the shots of them popping out of hyperspace.

It’s a minor quibble but something that is definitely there. Hope it’s less apparent on further viewings.

[blueviper]

I don't know, it just seems all of these character "arcs" are so pedestrian. I actually didn't care about Finn, Poe, Rose, Holdo at all. I got bored of that story line. I liked Poe and Finn in TFA.

Instead of introducing yet another character, use the ones they have. Since they are using the whole hyperspace tracking plot, have Poe, Finn and Rose devise a way to get on board and destroy it themselves. Take BB-8 to help with the hacking. Use each of their character skills to make this dangerous mission all the more important.