and a snippet on why Yoda may have seemed to look a bit "off"
“To know that we were going to have Yoda, we just said, ‘Look we need to go back and look at Empire Strikes Back, we need to look at how Stuart [Freeborn] created Yoda because that is the most pure puppet moment. It’s Frank Oz, who is one of the greatest puppeteers ever, and we knew that Frank was going to redo this. We just felt that it was absolutely right and proper that we create the puppet in the closest likeness to the original and to give Frank exactly what he had the first time around.
“We were acting it out in a very similar capacity of Frank being beneath the floor, and the puppet being above him and his assistant puppeteers with him to do the eyes and the ears and the extra hand and his little feet all on rods.
“I remember saying to Rian [Johnson] that if we were going to do it, we couldn’t make him too much of a ghost because it would deny everybody the joy of seeing him solid and real. The guys then came in later and added a really lovely glow, which I think just reminds us of the fact that Yoda is there as a ghost, but is there enough for you to really feel that you’re not being cheated.”
There's one problem. Yoda is a damn ghost. Make him look like one.
not being cheated? Yoda is a ghost! I'd expect him to look like Obi-Wan in ESB and ROTJ. I don't understand their reasoning behind not making him look too ghostly.
and a snippet on why Yoda may have seemed to look a bit "off"
“To know that we were going to have Yoda, we just said, ‘Look we need to go back and look at Empire Strikes Back, we need to look at how Stuart [Freeborn] created Yoda because that is the most pure puppet moment. It’s Frank Oz, who is one of the greatest puppeteers ever, and we knew that Frank was going to redo this. We just felt that it was absolutely right and proper that we create the puppet in the closest likeness to the original and to give Frank exactly what he had the first time around.
“We were acting it out in a very similar capacity of Frank being beneath the floor, and the puppet being above him and his assistant puppeteers with him to do the eyes and the ears and the extra hand and his little feet all on rods.
“I remember saying to Rian [Johnson] that if we were going to do it, we couldn’t make him too much of a ghost because it would deny everybody the joy of seeing him solid and real. The guys then came in later and added a really lovely glow, which I think just reminds us of the fact that Yoda is there as a ghost, but is there enough for you to really feel that you’re not being cheated.”
There's one problem. Yoda is a damn ghost. Make him look like one.
not being cheated? Yoda is a ghost! I'd expect him to look like Obi-Wan in ESB and ROTJ. I don't understand their reasoning behind not making him look too ghostly.
Guinness shot his force ghost scenes against a black curtain and they just laid it over the scenes he’s in. So he’s kinda transparent. Yoda is clearly more solid in TLJ and just given a glow. But there’s possibly even an in universe explanation. Yoda is simply more powerful in the force. He even hits luke on the head.
The Yoda thing didn’t bother me whatsoever. Fuckin delighted to see him.
and a snippet on why Yoda may have seemed to look a bit "off"
“To know that we were going to have Yoda, we just said, ‘Look we need to go back and look at Empire Strikes Back, we need to look at how Stuart [Freeborn] created Yoda because that is the most pure puppet moment. It’s Frank Oz, who is one of the greatest puppeteers ever, and we knew that Frank was going to redo this. We just felt that it was absolutely right and proper that we create the puppet in the closest likeness to the original and to give Frank exactly what he had the first time around.
“We were acting it out in a very similar capacity of Frank being beneath the floor, and the puppet being above him and his assistant puppeteers with him to do the eyes and the ears and the extra hand and his little feet all on rods.
“I remember saying to Rian [Johnson] that if we were going to do it, we couldn’t make him too much of a ghost because it would deny everybody the joy of seeing him solid and real. The guys then came in later and added a really lovely glow, which I think just reminds us of the fact that Yoda is there as a ghost, but is there enough for you to really feel that you’re not being cheated.”
There's one problem. Yoda is a damn ghost. Make him look like one.
not being cheated? Yoda is a ghost! I'd expect him to look like Obi-Wan in ESB and ROTJ. I don't understand their reasoning behind not making him look too ghostly.
Guinness shot his force ghost scenes against a black curtain and they just laid it over the scenes he’s in. So he’s kinda transparent. Yoda is clearly more solid in TLJ and just given a glow. But there’s possibly even an in universe explanation. Yoda is simply more powerful in the force. He even hits luke on the head.
The Yoda thing didn’t bother me whatsoever. Fuckin delighted to see him.
In hindsight I think he was giving Luke a hint. "You can hit Kylo on the head"...
So basically, Johnson and May spent Trump's presidency fighting each other over how best to sell the NHS to Trump.
and a snippet on why Yoda may have seemed to look a bit "off"
“To know that we were going to have Yoda, we just said, ‘Look we need to go back and look at Empire Strikes Back, we need to look at how Stuart [Freeborn] created Yoda because that is the most pure puppet moment. It’s Frank Oz, who is one of the greatest puppeteers ever, and we knew that Frank was going to redo this. We just felt that it was absolutely right and proper that we create the puppet in the closest likeness to the original and to give Frank exactly what he had the first time around.
“We were acting it out in a very similar capacity of Frank being beneath the floor, and the puppet being above him and his assistant puppeteers with him to do the eyes and the ears and the extra hand and his little feet all on rods.
“I remember saying to Rian [Johnson] that if we were going to do it, we couldn’t make him too much of a ghost because it would deny everybody the joy of seeing him solid and real. The guys then came in later and added a really lovely glow, which I think just reminds us of the fact that Yoda is there as a ghost, but is there enough for you to really feel that you’re not being cheated.”
There's one problem. Yoda is a damn ghost. Make him look like one.
not being cheated? Yoda is a ghost! I'd expect him to look like Obi-Wan in ESB and ROTJ. I don't understand their reasoning behind not making him look too ghostly.
Guinness shot his force ghost scenes against a black curtain and they just laid it over the scenes he’s in. So he’s kinda transparent. Yoda is clearly more solid in TLJ and just given a glow. But there’s possibly even an in universe explanation. Yoda is simply more powerful in the force. He even hits luke on the head.
The Yoda thing didn’t bother me whatsoever. Fuckin delighted to see him.
In hindsight I think he was giving Luke a hint. "You can hit Kylo on the head"...
All of this is because Luke was considering hitting kylo on the head. Or liberating his head from his shoulders
"Evil cannot create, it can only imitate and it only diminishes in the reflection" is the the absolute best argument for The First Order and Starkiller Base and all of it that I've ever seen. Outstanding.
LoathedVermin72 wrote:Yay grim sociopolitical ultrarealism, just what a great space opera should be
LOL.
I don't get why people want SW to be so realistic (character-wise) or the need for these space fantasies to mirror real-life historical and/or current events.
Can't I just go watch heroes defeat bad guys? Can't the bad guys get the upper hand at some point, and then the heroes figure out a way to best them?
Why do we have to show in a space fantasy that everyone is special (everyone can use the force?), if that is what indeed the last scene is implying, or Rian is wanting to imply with kililng the Jedi Order. The OT made Luke special, the "Return of the Jedi" and us kids didn't complain about it. We just roleplayed that we were Luke, or Han, or whomever else.
If everyone can use the Force, then the Force and its powers is basically "normal".
its not everyone can use the force. its that force users could come from anyone. luke was just a farmboy until the end of empire
durdencommatyler wrote:"Evil cannot create, it can only imitate and it only diminishes in the reflection" is the the absolute best argument for The First Order and Starkiller Base and all of it that I've ever seen. Outstanding.
LoathedVermin72 wrote:Yay grim sociopolitical ultrarealism, just what a great space opera should be
LOL.
I don't get why people want SW to be so realistic (character-wise) or the need for these space fantasies to mirror real-life historical and/or current events.
Can't I just go watch heroes defeat bad guys? Can't the bad guys get the upper hand at some point, and then the heroes figure out a way to best them?
Why do we have to show in a space fantasy that everyone is special (everyone can use the force?), if that is what indeed the last scene is implying, or Rian is wanting to imply with kililng the Jedi Order. The OT made Luke special, the "Return of the Jedi" and us kids didn't complain about it. We just roleplayed that we were Luke, or Han, or whomever else.
If everyone can use the Force, then the Force and its powers is basically "normal".
Lucas himself wrote and created the first Star Wars film as a reaction to the Vietnam War. Then he gave Anakin Skywalker George Bush's words in the prequel trilogy. Real life politics has always been a part of this space opera's fabric.
I don't know many people that want Star Wars to be more realistic.
And I totally get what you're saying about "normalizing" the Force. I disagree but I understand what you mean. As explained by Obi-Wan and Yoda, the Force binds all things. Everyone should feel it from time to time. Maybe that's deja vu or maybe that's intuition or jumping further or running faster in a dangerous situation than you thought possible. But the Force is a part of all living things. Not everyone can or does tap into it to the degree that Luke and Rey are able. To me, that doesn't normalize anything. Those characters are still "special."
durdencommatyler wrote:"Evil cannot create, it can only imitate and it only diminishes in the reflection" is the the absolute best argument for The First Order and Starkiller Base and all of it that I've ever seen. Outstanding.
story and star wars?
aw huh
I guess he actually said it during There and Back Again (his Lord of the Rings breakdown) but someone reminded him of it and quoted it back to him during The Force Awakens discussions.
Matthew Bortolin, the author of The Dharma of Star Wars, unpacks the Buddhist themes in the latest installment in the series, The Last Jedi.
Rey’s trippy experience in the dark side cave (where countless iterations of herself repeat endlessly ahead of and behind her) symbolizes how one action begets another, and another, and another, until the flow of actions returns to the actor. Rey seeks the identity of her parents, but there is no answer other than herself reflected back. Her actions and choices define who she is, not her ancestors.
LoathedVermin72 wrote:Yay grim sociopolitical ultrarealism, just what a great space opera should be
LOL.
I don't get why people want SW to be so realistic (character-wise) or the need for these space fantasies to mirror real-life historical and/or current events.
Can't I just go watch heroes defeat bad guys? Can't the bad guys get the upper hand at some point, and then the heroes figure out a way to best them?
Why do we have to show in a space fantasy that everyone is special (everyone can use the force?), if that is what indeed the last scene is implying, or Rian is wanting to imply with kililng the Jedi Order. The OT made Luke special, the "Return of the Jedi" and us kids didn't complain about it. We just roleplayed that we were Luke, or Han, or whomever else.
If everyone can use the Force, then the Force and its powers is basically "normal".
Lucas himself wrote and created the first Star Wars film as a reaction to the Vietnam War. Then he gave Anakin Skywalker George Bush's words in the prequel trilogy. Real life politics has always been a part of this space opera's fabric.
I don't know many people that want Star Wars to be more realistic.
And I totally get what you're saying about "normalizing" the Force. I disagree but I understand what you mean. As explained by Obi-Wan and Yoda, the Force binds all things. Everyone should feel it from time to time. Maybe that's deja vu or maybe that's intuition or jumping further or running faster in a dangerous situation than you thought possible. But the Force is a part of all living things. Not everyone can or does tap into it to the degree that Luke and Rey are able. To me, that doesn't normalize anything. Those characters are still "special."
you may be conflating realism with complexity. Star Wars isn't realistic, and there isn't really a push for that. We don't have blood, we don't grapple with the consequences of war in a meaningful way (R1 is the closest we've come, but even there what you get is superficial), logistics rarely matter (they do in TLJ but it's a plot point, not an end in itself), and even the 'political' ideas lack any real nuance. What TLJ does is make character relationships and dynamics more complex in terms of what motivates them, how they interact with each other. It's themes are more nuanced. It's a major step removed from the broad archetypes and themes in the OT.
They both have their place, to be clear. They just scratch a different itch. Sometimes you really want to have to think through what's happening to fully unlock and appreciate it. Sometimes you want to let it all float by and the surface and enjoy the ride.
stip wrote:yeah that comes up a lot in There and Back Again, but I liked his application of it to Star Wars
It fits so well and makes so much sense. One thing that TLJ really hit home for me was this idea that TFO has a very serious napoleon complex. I love how we get to see that they really believe in BIGGER BETTER FASTER MORE to the nth degree. TFO really believes that the only reason the Empire failed is that it wasn't big enough. The Death Star should have worked. But it didn't. Why? Wasn't big enough. It wasn't an actual planet. Turn that tiny base into a full functional planet/weapon and it'll work!
It helps hem up some of the issues I had with TFA and really sharpens those themes of echos, and the poetry that Lucas is always referring to. Not to mention, the dreaded "ring theory."
I don't need any more explanation. "Evil can not create, it can only imitate, and it diminishes in the reflection." That rings so true to me, it gives me all the tingles.
LoathedVermin72 wrote:Yay grim sociopolitical ultrarealism, just what a great space opera should be
LOL.
I don't get why people want SW to be so realistic (character-wise) or the need for these space fantasies to mirror real-life historical and/or current events.
Can't I just go watch heroes defeat bad guys? Can't the bad guys get the upper hand at some point, and then the heroes figure out a way to best them?
Why do we have to show in a space fantasy that everyone is special (everyone can use the force?), if that is what indeed the last scene is implying, or Rian is wanting to imply with kililng the Jedi Order. The OT made Luke special, the "Return of the Jedi" and us kids didn't complain about it. We just roleplayed that we were Luke, or Han, or whomever else.
If everyone can use the Force, then the Force and its powers is basically "normal".
Lucas himself wrote and created the first Star Wars film as a reaction to the Vietnam War. Then he gave Anakin Skywalker George Bush's words in the prequel trilogy. Real life politics has always been a part of this space opera's fabric.
I don't know many people that want Star Wars to be more realistic.
And I totally get what you're saying about "normalizing" the Force. I disagree but I understand what you mean. As explained by Obi-Wan and Yoda, the Force binds all things. Everyone should feel it from time to time. Maybe that's deja vu or maybe that's intuition or jumping further or running faster in a dangerous situation than you thought possible. But the Force is a part of all living things. Not everyone can or does tap into it to the degree that Luke and Rey are able. To me, that doesn't normalize anything. Those characters are still "special."
you may be conflating realism with complexity. Star Wars isn't realistic, and there isn't really a push for that. We don't have blood, we don't grapple with the consequences of war in a meaningful way (R1 is the closest we've come, but even there what you get is superficial), logistics rarely matter (they do in TLJ but it's a plot point, not an end in itself), and even the 'political' ideas lack any real nuance. What TLJ does is make character relationships and dynamics more complex in terms of what motivates them, how they interact with each other. It's themes are more nuanced. It's a major step removed from the broad archetypes and themes in the OT.
They both have their place, to be clear. They just scratch a different itch. Sometimes you really want to have to think through what's happening to fully unlock and appreciate it. Sometimes you want to let it all float by and the surface and enjoy the ride.
stip wrote:yeah that comes up a lot in There and Back Again, but I liked his application of it to Star Wars
It fits so well and makes so much sense. One thing that TLJ really hit home for me was this idea that TFO has a very serious napoleon complex. I love how we get to see that they really believe in BIGGER BETTER FASTER MORE to the nth degree. TFO really believes that the only reason the Empire failed is that it wasn't big enough. The Death Star should have worked. But it didn't. Why? Wasn't big enough. It wasn't an actual planet. Turn that tiny base into a full functional planet/weapon and it'll work!
It helps hem up some of the issues I had with TFA and really sharpens those themes of echos, and the poetry that Lucas is always referring to. Not to mention, the dreaded "ring theory."
I don't need any more explanation. "Evil can not create, it can only imitate, and it diminishes in the reflection." That rings so true to me, it gives me all the tingles.
There are even jokes about that in TFA. The movie itself mocks the concept behind starkiller base (without taking away from its effectiveness. It did destroy an entire solar system). It knew exactly what it was doing.
The reveal of Starkiller is conversational (here we go again, the Death Star, but BIGGER), and Han has his joke (how do we blow it up - there's always a way to do that. Evil doesn't learn from its mistakes
stip wrote:yeah that comes up a lot in There and Back Again, but I liked his application of it to Star Wars
It fits so well and makes so much sense. One thing that TLJ really hit home for me was this idea that TFO has a very serious napoleon complex. I love how we get to see that they really believe in BIGGER BETTER FASTER MORE to the nth degree. TFO really believes that the only reason the Empire failed is that it wasn't big enough. The Death Star should have worked. But it didn't. Why? Wasn't big enough. It wasn't an actual planet. Turn that tiny base into a full functional planet/weapon and it'll work!
It helps hem up some of the issues I had with TFA and really sharpens those themes of echos, and the poetry that Lucas is always referring to. Not to mention, the dreaded "ring theory."
I don't need any more explanation. "Evil can not create, it can only imitate, and it diminishes in the reflection." That rings so true to me, it gives me all the tingles.
There are even jokes about that in TFA. The movie itself mocks the concept behind starkiller base (without taking away from its effectiveness. It did destroy an entire solar system). It knew exactly what it was doing.
The reveal of Starkiller is conversational (here we go again, the Death Star, but BIGGER), and Han has his joke (how do we blow it up - there's always a way to do that. Evil doesn't learn from its mistakes
Absolutely. And TLJ leaned into that skid rather trying to "fix" or re-contextualize it. It's actually really awesome.
stip wrote:yeah that comes up a lot in There and Back Again, but I liked his application of it to Star Wars
It fits so well and makes so much sense. One thing that TLJ really hit home for me was this idea that TFO has a very serious napoleon complex. I love how we get to see that they really believe in BIGGER BETTER FASTER MORE to the nth degree. TFO really believes that the only reason the Empire failed is that it wasn't big enough. The Death Star should have worked. But it didn't. Why? Wasn't big enough. It wasn't an actual planet. Turn that tiny base into a full functional planet/weapon and it'll work!
It helps hem up some of the issues I had with TFA and really sharpens those themes of echos, and the poetry that Lucas is always referring to. Not to mention, the dreaded "ring theory."
I don't need any more explanation. "Evil can not create, it can only imitate, and it diminishes in the reflection." That rings so true to me, it gives me all the tingles.
There are even jokes about that in TFA. The movie itself mocks the concept behind starkiller base (without taking away from its effectiveness. It did destroy an entire solar system). It knew exactly what it was doing.
The reveal of Starkiller is conversational (here we go again, the Death Star, but BIGGER), and Han has his joke (how do we blow it up - there's always a way to do that. Evil doesn't learn from its mistakes
Absolutely. And TLJ leaned into that skid rather trying to "fix" or re-contextualize it. It's actually really awesome.
I also feel it stays in line with the youthful rage and ignorance that lies within Hux and Ren. Of course they would believe bigger and badder would only be more successful.
stip wrote:yeah that comes up a lot in There and Back Again, but I liked his application of it to Star Wars
It fits so well and makes so much sense. One thing that TLJ really hit home for me was this idea that TFO has a very serious napoleon complex. I love how we get to see that they really believe in BIGGER BETTER FASTER MORE to the nth degree. TFO really believes that the only reason the Empire failed is that it wasn't big enough. The Death Star should have worked. But it didn't. Why? Wasn't big enough. It wasn't an actual planet. Turn that tiny base into a full functional planet/weapon and it'll work!
It helps hem up some of the issues I had with TFA and really sharpens those themes of echos, and the poetry that Lucas is always referring to. Not to mention, the dreaded "ring theory."
I don't need any more explanation. "Evil can not create, it can only imitate, and it diminishes in the reflection." That rings so true to me, it gives me all the tingles.
There are even jokes about that in TFA. The movie itself mocks the concept behind starkiller base (without taking away from its effectiveness. It did destroy an entire solar system). It knew exactly what it was doing.
The reveal of Starkiller is conversational (here we go again, the Death Star, but BIGGER), and Han has his joke (how do we blow it up - there's always a way to do that. Evil doesn't learn from its mistakes
Absolutely. And TLJ leaned into that skid rather trying to "fix" or re-contextualize it. It's actually really awesome.
I also feel it stays in line with the youthful rage and ignorance that lies within Hux and Ren. Of course they would believe bigger and badder would only be more successful.
And it plays into modern day politics -- Trump-think and rhetoric. It's so well made.
I'm still disappointed with the movie, and may or may not see it again in the theater. I have issues with it.
But I will say that you guys really know how to put a discussion together when working with people who have issues with it and the others that enjoy the movie and find new things to love.
