Star Wars: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

[Anders]

IM not so confused about the force and im not sure why people are confused/up in arms about the presentation of the force over the course of all the films.

Its a life force, it binds the universe together, we are all a part of it. Its like real life. Its a common story.

Some people are more tuned into it than others but its still there. Whether you believe in God, Buddha, science, or whatever....we are all connected by a a strange force and system that people are unable to actually comprehend.

The Skywalkers were the focus of the films. There have been powerful jedi that have not been part of the skywalker clan. Even if you aren't a jedi, the force is still there, maybe you haven't tapped into it, maybe you have a little and all that has brought you was closer to a loved one instead of being able to float through space.

Maybe one has just become concious of their thoughts, maybe you have become spiritually enlightened.

A life force. Binds us. Flows through all of us.

Its God, really. Fuck midicholrians.

Good post. I agree with you. Are some people just not looking pay the Skywalker thing on this? Because if you watched the prequels you should easily remember that there were a shit load of Jedi not named Skywalker before Order 66 was executed.

I agree as well. Good post.

[dimejinky99]

Anders I’m blaming you for sending us on this tangent

Just to add one thing. The force does indeed flow through everyone. It’s just that people are more in tune with it and Jedi etc can have dialogue with it and manipulate it. It’s not open to all even if they tried to access it. But like Lucas said, when han is flying the falcon he’s using the force/it’s flowing through him. Anyone with a skill it manifests in that skill though they’re unaware of it. I like that take.

[stip]

IM not so confused about the force and im not sure why people are confused/up in arms about the presentation of the force over the course of all the films.

Its a life force, it binds the universe together, we are all a part of it. Its like real life. Its a common story.

Some people are more tuned into it than others but its still there. Whether you believe in God, Buddha, science, or whatever....we are all connected by a a strange force and system that people are unable to actually comprehend.

The Skywalkers were the focus of the films. There have been powerful jedi that have not been part of the skywalker clan. Even if you aren't a jedi, the force is still there, maybe you haven't tapped into it, maybe you have a little and all that has brought you was closer to a loved one instead of being able to float through space.

Maybe one has just become concious of their thoughts, maybe you have become spiritually enlightened.

A life force. Binds us. Flows through all of us.

Its God, really. Fuck midicholrians.

Good post. I agree with you. Are some people just not looking pay the Skywalker thing on this? Because if you watched the prequels you should easily remember that there were a shit load of Jedi not named Skywalker before Order 66 was executed.

I agree as well. Good post.

It's not that other jedi don't exist. It's the assumption (built into the prophecy nonsense in particular) that the skywalkers were destined to be important. Yes there are other jedi, but really they dont matter (not nearly as much). It reframes the role of the Skywalkers in a way that privelages their bloodline over their character.

Beyond that, and perhaps more important, is the way in which fandom ran with this idea. The assumption that the people who matter in the Star Wars universe had to come from people who had previously mattered as part of an increasingly aristocratic cycle.

This is most prevalent in Rey. Rey's lineage isn't really presented as a mystery to be solved in TFA. We don't know who they are, but it is their absence that is significant, not their identity. It's not that Rey thought she must be destined to be a princess or someone important (which is how stories about orphans usually resolve themselves. Hell, that's Luke's story). She just wanted someone to love her, and wanted to be part of a family - any family. The significance of the reveal of her parents for Kylo (the villian) is that she isn't someone important, and that the lack of importance and significance creates a space that he can fill. But the key element of that reveal for Rey isn't that they were nobody. It's that they abandoned her. That's the emotionally devastating moment.

But if you read two years of fan anticipation to Rey's lineage the assumption is always that she must be the daughter or someone really important (because why else would we care who her parents are). She is the daughter of Luke, of Leia, of Obi Wan, of Palpatine, of the force itself. The idea that it didn't matter never entered into anyone's head, even though (in hindsight) it is easily the most thematically compelling choice to make for her. Because Rey is important (TFA clearly establishes her power) she MUST be connected to someone else powerful.

The extent to which no one predicted that, or the extent to which you find that reveal boring or disappointing, is the extent to which you are committed to the idea that Star Wars is a closed story focused on one set of core family dynamics (the skywalkers and their closest friends/adversaries). The reveal of Rey (and what TLJ does) is choose to open up the story outside of that family dynamic - by making your central protagonist external to it, and gradually removing the remaining elements of that skywalker inner circle from the narrative.

To be clear, if you are disappointed in this it doesn't mean you're wrong. There's something to be said about tracking an inter-generational story about one family. And historically that's what Star Wars was (other than the Rebels cartoon). TLJ opens that up and reframes expectations.

[dimejinky99]

Something all fandom me included, was very late realising-Rey never gives you the impression she doesn’t know who her parents are. Quite the opposite in fact. She simply says she’s waiting for them to come back.

Fandom, me included, went wild speculating and trying to make her somebody. Anybody. As long as she’s related to somebody we know.

Her being a nobody was the most distasteful and frowned upon option of all because it didn’t fit out grand plans and head canon.
Lotta the anger and blowback about the film comes from this.

[wease]

Obviously she’s Obi-Wan’s granddaughter.

[epilogue]

Yep. Well said dime. And this is exactly why I've been in the "Rey isn't related to anyone" camp from the beginning.

[wease]

Yep. Well said dime. And this is exactly why I've been in the "Rey isn't related to anyone" camp from the beginning.

Nothing that has been revealed in the movies contradicts the theory that she’s Obi-Wan’s grand daughter.

[epilogue]

Yep. Well said dime. And this is exactly why I've been in the "Rey isn't related to anyone" camp from the beginning.

Nothing that has been revealed in the movies contradicts the theory that she’s Obi-Wan’s grand daughter.

Sure. They could totally go that direction. But there's no reason to. The emotional power and resonance of what's presented in The Last Jedi fits perfectly and requires nothing further.

[wease]

Yep. Well said dime. And this is exactly why I've been in the "Rey isn't related to anyone" camp from the beginning.

Nothing that has been revealed in the movies contradicts the theory that she’s Obi-Wan’s grand daughter.

Sure. They could totally go that direction. But there's no reason to. The emotional power and resonance of what's presented in The Last Jedi fits perfectly and requires nothing further.

I agree.

But she’s Obi-Wan’s granddaughter.

[epilogue]

Yep. Well said dime. And this is exactly why I've been in the "Rey isn't related to anyone" camp from the beginning.

Nothing that has been revealed in the movies contradicts the theory that she’s Obi-Wan’s grand daughter.

Sure. They could totally go that direction. But there's no reason to. The emotional power and resonance of what's presented in The Last Jedi fits perfectly and requires nothing further.

I agree.

But she’s Obi-Wan’s granddaughter.

[E.H. Ruddock]

Yep. Well said dime. And this is exactly why I've been in the "Rey isn't related to anyone" camp from the beginning.

Nothing that has been revealed in the movies contradicts the theory that she’s Obi-Wan’s grand daughter.

Sure. They could totally go that direction. But there's no reason to. The emotional power and resonance of what's presented in The Last Jedi fits perfectly and requires nothing further.

I agree.

But she’s Obi-Wan’s granddaughter.

I feel like with the juggling directors, this could still happen. Like JJ saying, "yeah that was cool and all, Rian, but let's bring it back a little and make it more Star Warsy". This would fit perfectly into that scenario.

[epilogue]

Yep. Well said dime. And this is exactly why I've been in the "Rey isn't related to anyone" camp from the beginning.

Nothing that has been revealed in the movies contradicts the theory that she’s Obi-Wan’s grand daughter.

Sure. They could totally go that direction. But there's no reason to. The emotional power and resonance of what's presented in The Last Jedi fits perfectly and requires nothing further.

I agree.

But she’s Obi-Wan’s granddaughter.

I feel like with the juggling directors, this could still happen. Like JJ saying, "yeah that was cool and all, Rian, but let's bring it back a little and make it more Star Warsy". This would fit perfectly into that scenario.

Totally. Which is why I said they could totally go that direction in my previous post. I won't be surprised if JJ retcons it. But there's no need to and I personally would be a little bummed. But it could still happen and it could still work. I just love the way Rian left it so much.

[dimejinky99]

Yep. Well said dime. And this is exactly why I've been in the "Rey isn't related to anyone" camp from the beginning.

Nothing that has been revealed in the movies contradicts the theory that she’s Obi-Wan’s grand daughter.

Sure. They could totally go that direction. But there's no reason to. The emotional power and resonance of what's presented in The Last Jedi fits perfectly and requires nothing further.

I agree.

But she’s Obi-Wan’s granddaughter.

I feel like with the juggling directors, this could still happen. Like JJ saying, "yeah that was cool and all, Rian, but let's bring it back a little and make it more Star Warsy". This would fit perfectly into that scenario.

I’m willing to bet everything I own JJ is gonna roll back on it and she finds out who her parents are. She possibly might even meet them.

[stip]

Yep. Well said dime. And this is exactly why I've been in the "Rey isn't related to anyone" camp from the beginning.

I definitely wasn't. I love that option, but I was in the Palpatine camp

[epilogue]

Yep. Well said dime. And this is exactly why I've been in the "Rey isn't related to anyone" camp from the beginning.

I definitely wasn't. I love that option, but I was in the Palpatine camp

I liked a lot of the theories. But it didn't cross my mind that there was a mystery to answer until the internet told me there was. And I ranked some of the various ideas, for sure. But "no one" was always the one I liked the most and wanted. But I certainly entertained Palpatine and Obi-Wan and even reanimated Anakin/midichlorian baby. All of those had seeds of merit and could have been pulled off in satisfactory ways.

[Anders]

IM not so confused about the force and im not sure why people are confused/up in arms about the presentation of the force over the course of all the films.

Its a life force, it binds the universe together, we are all a part of it. Its like real life. Its a common story.

Some people are more tuned into it than others but its still there. Whether you believe in God, Buddha, science, or whatever....we are all connected by a a strange force and system that people are unable to actually comprehend.

The Skywalkers were the focus of the films. There have been powerful jedi that have not been part of the skywalker clan. Even if you aren't a jedi, the force is still there, maybe you haven't tapped into it, maybe you have a little and all that has brought you was closer to a loved one instead of being able to float through space.

Maybe one has just become concious of their thoughts, maybe you have become spiritually enlightened.

A life force. Binds us. Flows through all of us.

Its God, really. Fuck midicholrians.

Good post. I agree with you. Are some people just not looking pay the Skywalker thing on this? Because if you watched the prequels you should easily remember that there were a shit load of Jedi not named Skywalker before Order 66 was executed.

I agree as well. Good post.

It's not that other jedi don't exist. It's the assumption (built into the prophecy nonsense in particular) that the skywalkers were destined to be important. Yes there are other jedi, but really they dont matter (not nearly as much). It reframes the role of the Skywalkers in a way that privelages their bloodline over their character.

Beyond that, and perhaps more important, is the way in which fandom ran with this idea. The assumption that the people who matter in the Star Wars universe had to come from people who had previously mattered as part of an increasingly aristocratic cycle.

This is most prevalent in Rey. Rey's lineage isn't really presented as a mystery to be solved in TFA. We don't know who they are, but it is their absence that is significant, not their identity. It's not that Rey thought she must be destined to be a princess or someone important (which is how stories about orphans usually resolve themselves. Hell, that's Luke's story). She just wanted someone to love her, and wanted to be part of a family - any family. The significance of the reveal of her parents for Kylo (the villian) is that she isn't someone important, and that the lack of importance and significance creates a space that he can fill. But the key element of that reveal for Rey isn't that they were nobody. It's that they abandoned her. That's the emotionally devastating moment.

But if you read two years of fan anticipation to Rey's lineage the assumption is always that she must be the daughter or someone really important (because why else would we care who her parents are). She is the daughter of Luke, of Leia, of Obi Wan, of Palpatine, of the force itself. The idea that it didn't matter never entered into anyone's head, even though (in hindsight) it is easily the most thematically compelling choice to make for her. Because Rey is important (TFA clearly establishes her power) she MUST be connected to someone else powerful.

The extent to which no one predicted that, or the extent to which you find that reveal boring or disappointing, is the extent to which you are committed to the idea that Star Wars is a closed story focused on one set of core family dynamics (the skywalkers and their closest friends/adversaries). The reveal of Rey (and what TLJ does) is choose to open up the story outside of that family dynamic - by making your central protagonist external to it, and gradually removing the remaining elements of that skywalker inner circle from the narrative.

To be clear, if you are disappointed in this it doesn't mean you're wrong. There's something to be said about tracking an inter-generational story about one family. And historically that's what Star Wars was (other than the Rebels cartoon). TLJ opens that up and reframes expectations.

The Skywalkers are very important to this saga, because it is their story. If this was any other Star Wars story (clone wars, comics, Rogue One, the new thousands of years ago-prequels that they are working on), the Skywalkers wouldn't matter or even be mentioned. In no way whatsoever has any previous movie indicated that you have to be a Skywalker to be a Jedi, or that Darth, Luke and Kylo are the only powerful Jedi. Prophecy or no prophecy, it doesn't really matter. I don't get where you get the aristocratic thought from, it has nothing to do with that. It's just the story of this family that is the focus of the saga. But anyone can be a Jedi.

From Rolling Stone: "Rewatching the Star Wars films recently, I found it interesting how the new films reframed the old ones: They now seem primarily concerned with the tragedy of Darth Vader, rather than the triumph of the Rebels.
Yeah, I made a series of movies that was about one thing: Darth Vader. Originally, people thought it was all about Luke. The early films are about Luke redeeming his father, so Luke's the focus. But it's also about Princess Leia and her struggle to reestablish the Republic, which is what her mother was doing. So it's really about mothers and daughters and fathers and sons." From LA Times: ""I get asked all the time, 'What happens after "Return of the Jedi"?,' and there really is no answer for that," he said. "The movies were the story of Anakin Skywalker and Luke Skywalker, and when Luke saves the galaxy and redeems his father, that's where that story ends."

So when Rey takes center stage in the continuation of this saga, and she immediately is as powerful as Luke's strongest pupil, and they build up the mystery of who she is, and she even gets a vision straight out of the saga:
Young Rey: (Echoing) No!
Yoda: (Echoing) Its energy...
Yoda: ...surrounds us...
Man: (Echoing) No!
Yoda: ...and binds us...
(Man screams)
Obi-Wan: The Force will be...
Young Rey: (Echoing) No! Come back!
Unkar: Quiet, girl.
Young Rey: No!
Obi-Wan: Rey?
Obi-Wan: These are your first steps.

So naturally there should be a backstory there. Not because she should be a princess or something, but because it makes sense in the saga. If they intended for her to be born from parents that were no one, just two random folks who sold their child for a few dollars of drinking money, it would have been better to have that information in TFA.

As for years of fan speculation, I don't care about that at all. Certainly doesn't influence my opinion. I also think a lot of people that did speculate, loved this movie. And a lot of people that thought it was poorly made in TFA, and didn't bother speculating about it, didn't like TLJ either. So speculation or not, it doesn't matter.

[stip]

Yep. Well said dime. And this is exactly why I've been in the "Rey isn't related to anyone" camp from the beginning.

Nothing that has been revealed in the movies contradicts the theory that she’s Obi-Wan’s grand daughter.

Sure. They could totally go that direction. But there's no reason to. The emotional power and resonance of what's presented in The Last Jedi fits perfectly and requires nothing further.

I agree.

But she’s Obi-Wan’s granddaughter.

I feel like with the juggling directors, this could still happen. Like JJ saying, "yeah that was cool and all, Rian, but let's bring it back a little and make it more Star Warsy". This would fit perfectly into that scenario.

Totally. Which is why I said they could totally go that direction in my previous post. I won't be surprised if JJ retcons it. But there's no need to and I personally would be a little bummed. But it could still happen and it could still work. I just love the way Rian left it so much.

JJ was the executive producer and loved the script, so there's hope he won't change it. And while the movie didn't do TFA numbers that was never going to happen, and it's done well. Hopefully they leave it alone

[epilogue]

Yep. Well said dime. And this is exactly why I've been in the "Rey isn't related to anyone" camp from the beginning.

Nothing that has been revealed in the movies contradicts the theory that she’s Obi-Wan’s grand daughter.

Sure. They could totally go that direction. But there's no reason to. The emotional power and resonance of what's presented in The Last Jedi fits perfectly and requires nothing further.

I agree.

But she’s Obi-Wan’s granddaughter.

I feel like with the juggling directors, this could still happen. Like JJ saying, "yeah that was cool and all, Rian, but let's bring it back a little and make it more Star Warsy". This would fit perfectly into that scenario.

Totally. Which is why I said they could totally go that direction in my previous post. I won't be surprised if JJ retcons it. But there's no need to and I personally would be a little bummed. But it could still happen and it could still work. I just love the way Rian left it so much.

JJ was the executive producer and loved the script, so there's hope he won't change it. And while the movie didn't do TFA numbers that was never going to happen, and it's done well. Hopefully they leave it alone

Yep. I'm with you.

[E.H. Ruddock]

Do you guys think Disney is worried about some of the negativity surrounding TLJ and might tell JJ to make it more "fan friendly", whatever that may mean?

[Anders]

Do you guys think Disney is worried about some of the negativity surrounding TLJ and might tell JJ to make it more "fan friendly", whatever that may mean?

JJ usually does go for fan friendly, even if fans don’t always appreciate his work (Star Trek(.