The Wire

[numbers]

The Wire >>>> The Sopranos. Numbers' point is a very good one, but not for the reason he followed up with. The dream sequence episodes were absolutely brilliant and added a shitload of depth to the series overall. It was the stagnant meandering between key events that set Sopranos back in the latter seasons.

One of them was, the episode where Pussy was the fish in the dream. Most of them however, especially the one where he was the travelling salesmen, were irrelevant to the plot and just used as filler because they didnt feel like writing a 13 episode story arc.

[@SkitchP]

The Wire >>>> The Sopranos. Numbers' point is a very good one, but not for the reason he followed up with. The dream sequence episodes were absolutely brilliant and added a shitload of depth to the series overall. It was the stagnant meandering between key events that set Sopranos back in the latter seasons.

One of them was, the episode where Pussy was the fish in the dream. Most of them however, especially the one where he was the travelling salesmen, were irrelevant to the plot and just used as filler because they didnt feel like writing a 13 episode story arc.

I enjoyed the Sopranos, but I'm with micksomenumbers on this one. I dont think it was "lazy" so much as intentionally and totally pointlessly "artsy." And toward the end, it really felt like Chase had almost a contempt for the audience. You want to see murders and mob violence? Lets show a fat italian guy's secret gay love affair! Don't like it? Here, watch the growth of Tony's son's Party planning business! Crime discussion? Nah, Here's Tony and Carmella's marital problems!

I think the biggest problem is that the last couple seasons, a lot of the secondary players had been killed off for various reasons. So outside of the main 4 or 5 we were left with Vito, Janice and Doogie Howsers friend.

Obviously the show isn't all going to be brutal death and violence, but when you're not invested in the characters outside of just Tony and Christopher, you become a lot more critical of the story building episodes. It replaced interesting with intentional pretentiousness. It usually didn't work. Having said that, I think the ending was the ultimate example of it... but in that case it worked as I absolutely adore the ending.

[BootsToAsses]

I don't want to hijack this thread with Sopranos discussion, but I utterly disagree with those saying the dream sequences where Tony was a salesman were pointless/pretentious/artsy etc.

The dreams added so much depth to who Tony was, what he perhaps wanted to be or thought he wanted to be but never could. Not to mention the looming sense of death fast approaching, surrounding everyone.

I feel like as soon as season 5 started, you got the sense that things were going to start coming to a close. There's a faint sense of closing in and foreboding, where you finally realise that these characters we've invested in have no way out and that ultimately there's only going to be one of two endings for each one of them - prison or death.

I didn't overly enjoy the Vito storyline either, but that's a minor quibble for me.

Like I said, to say the dream stuff with Tony after he got shot was pointless filler is completely missing the point in my opinion. I don't think I've ever seen a more sad/beautiful image than that of Tony sat on the bed as Kevin Finnerty in his coma dream, staring out at the very distant beacon of light with some utterly beautiful music playing over it. Tony is lost, and always will be lost. He wants to find his way back but never will. I'm sorry but for me it's a powerful moment.

Plus, just look at the sheer quality of episodes in season 6A and 6B - Members Only, Join The Club, Mayham, Mr & Mrs John Sacrimoni Request...,Soprano Home Movies, Remember When, Kennedy and Heidi, The Blue Comet, Made In America.

If anything, the last season and a half was some of the strongest stuff on the show for me.

[Norah]

So should i watch The Sopranos?

[@SkitchP]

So should i watch The Sopranos?

for sure. great show.

[Jorge]

The dream sequences were fucking awesome and gave us a great insight into Tony's mind, which is what the whole show is about.

[Jorge]

Like I said, to say the dream stuff with Tony after he got shot was pointless filler is completely missing the point in my opinion. I don't think I've ever seen a more sad/beautiful image than that of Tony sat on the bed as Kevin Finnerty in his coma dream, staring out at the very distant beacon of light with some utterly beautiful music playing over it. Tony is lost, and always will be lost. He wants to find his way back but never will. I'm sorry but for me it's a powerful moment.

Absolutely. I love that whole arc.

[Cold Confessor]

The Wire is the best series.
Ever.
It plays in its own league.

[Dscans]

Germany loves my shit.

[daft twat]

I'm jealous of people that haven't seen The Wire yet.

why do you say that? i'm asking anyone who reads this thread and feels this way. i just watched the first episode because i recently watched all of breaking bad and felt a void in the late evening when i have an hour or two without kids. to be honest, if that episode was all i had to go on, i'd walk away without giving it a thought. without spoilers, why should i continue? i know the simple answer is, "do what you want," but this is a message board and people post about what they care about, so i'd genuinely like to hear some reasons.

as an aside, holy shit, there is a lot of swearing. swearing doesn't offend me at all, but it's so prevalent it's kind of distracting and a little detracting. i wonder if you stacked them up against each other if there would be more motherfuckers in this show or cocksuckers in deadwood.

[Mickey]

"I have watched 1/60th of what has REPEATEDLY been named one of the best cultural artifacts of the early 00s and it didn't grab me so why should I keep going?"

I dunno man, pretty airtight case you've got there.

[Jorge]

Is he making a case for/against anything? Or is he just sharing his experience and asking for opinions?

[Mickey]

Okay, but I'm not sure what kind of opinions he expects. He (understandably) doesn't want spoilers so you can't appeal to what actually happens in the show, and he's also apparently aware of The Wire's reputation/status as a cultural icon (that's the vague other thing he has to go on, right? otherwise he would have actually turned it off). Shit, no more then twenty posts ago you have people arguing that this show is so good, it's not even comparable to ANY OTHER SHOW IN TELEVISION HISTORY. What else is there to say? Beyond personal interest in the material or faith in a recommendation, there's really not a reason to consume any media at all: he apparently doesn't have the first and has already been given the second in spades.

[Mickey]

I will say that The Wire is more like a film than a TV show, in that it's incredibly difficult to have a fully satisfying experience on an episode-to-episode basis because the plot isn't resolved on those terms (which can make it feel like it's aimless at-times, and I think especially the first episode of each season is a sort of adjustment period). Then again, that's true for most long-form TV narratives, so anyone familiar with the genre through something like Breaking Bad should know that it takes sometimes 2-3 episodes to get a sense of emotional investment in the characters (though you could argue that BB's pacing is much more rapid than The Wire's, and I think you'd be right). I dunno, though--I look at the first episode and there's so many great character moments that should tell you (or told me, anyway) that this is an interesting story. From the first scene--Snot Boogie's death and McNulty's conversation on the stoop--we're in a very different world where already you have competing ideas at-play. Add that to the immediate sense of McNulty being on a bit of a crusade (one not welcomed by his superiors, in the process de-mythologizing the cop-show-good-v-bad concept), the specific localized setting (this isn't Anywhere, USA, it's post-9-11 Baltimore), and the humanized drug-dealers --as a viewer, I'm getting the stirrings of a complex conflict that I want to know more about (aided, of course, by the already mentioned superlatives).

[fishbob]

The Wire is so good. I didn't realise how good it was until around season 3, then I loved it. However it wasn't until AFTER I finished it that I realised the full scope of it. The Wire is so good that it makes other tv shows hard to watch. Like I watched Oz after The Wire, which is a great show, but it was actually SHIT in comparison.

The Wire is so good it makes everything else bad.

[daft twat]

Okay, but I'm not sure what kind of opinions he expects. He (understandably) doesn't want spoilers so you can't appeal to what actually happens in the show, and he's also apparently aware of The Wire's reputation/status as a cultural icon (that's the vague other thing he has to go on, right? otherwise he would have actually turned it off). Shit, no more then twenty posts ago you have people arguing that this show is so good, it's not even comparable to ANY OTHER SHOW IN TELEVISION HISTORY. What else is there to say? Beyond personal interest in the material or faith in a recommendation, there's really not a reason to consume any media at all: he apparently doesn't have the first and has already been given the second in spades.

i am aware of its reputation. i think the past ten or so years has been a golden age for tv. there have been so many amazing shows. the sopranos, deadwood, breaking bad, game of thrones all spring to mind as top of the heap kind of stuff. i think many people who have seen the wire have watched one or more of these and others. that's why after watching just one episode i figured i'd ask why so many people consider this show to be the clear winner. i guess i expected someone to say something that wasn't a spoiler, but was more specific than, "because it's just great."

for example, having just watched breaking bad and really liked it, if someone asked why, i would talk about how as a viewer you feel almost constant anxiety about the protagonist being caught or killed even though the moral person you are that exists in the real world would want him caught or killed. i would talk about how you find yourself cheering for bad guys against badder guys, and how the writers can suddenly make you cheer for the badder guys because you find out there is someone maybe a little worse. but mainly i'd talk about how the show makes you question your own morals and beliefs as you follow the story. it began as a man trying to take care of his family through illegal means. why was i okay with that, even though his product likely led to many deaths, but i was appalled when a little boy was shot for seeing something he shouldn't have? anyway, those are the main reasons i think breaking bad is great. i also think game of thrones is great, but for entirely different reasons, such as the blind-siding twists and feeling that no character is safe.

so does that help? people around here don't seem agree on anything for positive reasons except this show. i just thought someone might be able to put into words why that is.

[RisingTides]

Okay, but I'm not sure what kind of opinions he expects. He (understandably) doesn't want spoilers so you can't appeal to what actually happens in the show, and he's also apparently aware of The Wire's reputation/status as a cultural icon (that's the vague other thing he has to go on, right? otherwise he would have actually turned it off). Shit, no more then twenty posts ago you have people arguing that this show is so good, it's not even comparable to ANY OTHER SHOW IN TELEVISION HISTORY. What else is there to say? Beyond personal interest in the material or faith in a recommendation, there's really not a reason to consume any media at all: he apparently doesn't have the first and has already been given the second in spades.

i am aware of its reputation. i think the past ten or so years has been a golden age for tv. there have been so many amazing shows. the sopranos, deadwood, breaking bad, game of thrones all spring to mind as top of the heap kind of stuff. i think many people who have seen the wire have watched one or more of these and others. that's why after watching just one episode i figured i'd ask why so many people consider this show to be the clear winner. i guess i expected someone to say something that wasn't a spoiler, but was more specific than, "because it's just great."

for example, having just watched breaking bad and really liked it, if someone asked why, i would talk about how as a viewer you feel almost constant anxiety about the protagonist being caught or killed even though the moral person you are that exists in the real world would want him caught or killed. i would talk about how you find yourself cheering for bad guys against badder guys, and how the writers can suddenly make you cheer for the badder guys because you find out there is someone maybe a little worse. but mainly i'd talk about how the show makes you question your own morals and beliefs as you follow the story. it began as a man trying to take care of his family through illegal means. why was i okay with that, even though his product likely led to many deaths, but i was appalled when a little boy was shot for seeing something he shouldn't have? anyway, those are the main reasons i think breaking bad is great. i also think game of thrones is great, but for entirely different reasons, such as the blind-siding twists and feeling that no character is safe.

so does that help? people around here don't seem agree on anything for positive reasons except this show. i just thought someone might be able to put into words why that is.

First and foremost, the Wire transcends "entertainment" in a lot of ways. Not only are the countless political statements made throughout the show, I dont know of a show that has had a more profound impact on how I view things in the real world. I dont look at police the same way. I dont look at the "POLICE WITH A RECORD SETTING XXXXX POUNDS OF COCAINE RECOVERED" stories with any optimism. It shows, in relatively great detail a world NONE of us know.. and it's in every one of our cities. We drive through it, and past it to go to a concert or a baseball game. And that's just the overall arc.. each season takes an in depth look at a different element of society, and the "seedy underbelly" that we either dont know about or try to ignore.

2nd. Characters. I like everyone of the shows you mentioned. Great shows in the history of television... and to me they aren't on the same level as the wire even on a purely entertainment level. For a show with no "main" character, it also didnt have any weak ones. Every person on the show, on some level is compelling and unique. There are no Skylars, or Johnny Cakes. I love Game of Thrones, but the Wire provides that same sense of menace... and it''s set in the real world. All because each character feels so real, and so multi dimensional.

3rd. The Realism. Breaking Bad is fun, but it feels like a television show every minute your watching it. It feels like a fictional universe where a lot of the characters are over the top. Even the Sopranos fell prey to it from time to time, and some of the dream episodes remind you of it (love them or not)-- you are watching a show. The Wire, in a lot of ways could be a documentary, except for no documentary would give you that much access. It's well acted, well written. with great characters... and could be real life.


And i think outside of some minor quibbles, I imagine most would agree with me, it's just most people have the sense not to require people "explain" liking the wire, because if you watch more than one episode, everything I just said becomes pretty apparent.

[daft twat]

Okay, but I'm not sure what kind of opinions he expects. He (understandably) doesn't want spoilers so you can't appeal to what actually happens in the show, and he's also apparently aware of The Wire's reputation/status as a cultural icon (that's the vague other thing he has to go on, right? otherwise he would have actually turned it off). Shit, no more then twenty posts ago you have people arguing that this show is so good, it's not even comparable to ANY OTHER SHOW IN TELEVISION HISTORY. What else is there to say? Beyond personal interest in the material or faith in a recommendation, there's really not a reason to consume any media at all: he apparently doesn't have the first and has already been given the second in spades.

i am aware of its reputation. i think the past ten or so years has been a golden age for tv. there have been so many amazing shows. the sopranos, deadwood, breaking bad, game of thrones all spring to mind as top of the heap kind of stuff. i think many people who have seen the wire have watched one or more of these and others. that's why after watching just one episode i figured i'd ask why so many people consider this show to be the clear winner. i guess i expected someone to say something that wasn't a spoiler, but was more specific than, "because it's just great."

for example, having just watched breaking bad and really liked it, if someone asked why, i would talk about how as a viewer you feel almost constant anxiety about the protagonist being caught or killed even though the moral person you are that exists in the real world would want him caught or killed. i would talk about how you find yourself cheering for bad guys against badder guys, and how the writers can suddenly make you cheer for the badder guys because you find out there is someone maybe a little worse. but mainly i'd talk about how the show makes you question your own morals and beliefs as you follow the story. it began as a man trying to take care of his family through illegal means. why was i okay with that, even though his product likely led to many deaths, but i was appalled when a little boy was shot for seeing something he shouldn't have? anyway, those are the main reasons i think breaking bad is great. i also think game of thrones is great, but for entirely different reasons, such as the blind-siding twists and feeling that no character is safe.

so does that help? people around here don't seem agree on anything for positive reasons except this show. i just thought someone might be able to put into words why that is.

First and foremost, the Wire transcends "entertainment" in a lot of ways. Not only are the countless political statements made throughout the show, I dont know of a show that has had a more profound impact on how I view things in the real world. I dont look at police the same way. I dont look at the "POLICE WITH A RECORD SETTING XXXXX POUNDS OF COCAINE RECOVERED" stories with any optimism. It shows, in relatively great detail a world NONE of us know.. and it's in every one of our cities. We drive through it, and past it to go to a concert or a baseball game. And that's just the overall arc.. each season takes an in depth look at a different element of society, and the "seedy underbelly" that we either dont know about or try to ignore.

2nd. Characters. I like everyone of the shows you mentioned. Great shows in the history of television... and to me they aren't on the same level as the wire even on a purely entertainment level. For a show with no "main" character, it also didnt have any weak ones. Every person on the show, on some level is compelling and unique. There are no Skylars, or Johnny Cakes. I love Game of Thrones, but the Wire provides that same sense of menace... and it''s set in the real world. All because each character feels so real, and so multi dimensional.

3rd. The Realism. Breaking Bad is fun, but it feels like a television show every minute your watching it. It feels like a fictional universe where a lot of the characters are over the top. Even the Sopranos fell prey to it from time to time, and some of the dream episodes remind you of it (love them or not)-- you are watching a show. The Wire, in a lot of ways could be a documentary, except for no documentary would give you that much access. It's well acted, well written. with great characters... and could be real life.


And i think outside of some minor quibbles, I imagine most would agree with me, it's just most people have the sense not to require people "explain" liking the wire, because if you watch more than one episode, everything I just said becomes pretty apparent.

thank the first, second, third. those were great explanations and i enjoyed reading them. that's exactly the sort of thing i was hoping to hear.

no thanks for the part in bold. it's a arts and entertaintment fucking forum on a goddam pearl jam webpage. the show was over when this thread was begun with the new board. i read the first page and it was all pretty just people saying this is the best show ever without saying why. i thought maybe some of those fans would enjoy explaining why they loved something so passionately. i am a language arts teacher, so it's something i do quite a lot in an attempt to get kids fired up about something they're going to be exposed to. and when they've read the final page, whether they say, "this was amazing" or "this was a waste of my time," i require an explanation. anyway, sorry to all i offended by asking a question. christ on a bike, why do people even bother posting here?

[Jorge]

Ok, calm down.

[daft twat]

Ok, calm down.

I'm calm. Just don't get the dickish response from Mickey followed by Skitch with his new account taking a shot after a good explanation. I guess I'll just have to watch and hope I can be allowed in the club.