Star Wars: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

[Strat]

not yet - probably will get to it next weekend. I've heard really good things about it

I can say with confidence you’re going to enjoy it more than TLJ itself.
Lotta people seem to be saying the same.
Ive watched it more than the movie at this point.

TLJ is the pinnacle of what star wars can be for me (or the pinnacle of what it can be as an adult), so that's a tall order. But it doesn't have to be the best for me to thoroughly enjoy it

Dime, dont you mean the "Director and the Jedi" documentary? That was my favorite. The force one is good byt only about 15 minutes. The Director and Jedi doc dives even deeper into all of that stuff and more.

[stip]

i assumed that's what he was talking about

[stip]

Yes, that space chase was something special. Although Canto Bight really topped it.

As before, I'm not a fan of the canto bight chase at the end. That's the only real misfire in the movie (the rest of the stuff there is okay, and I get why it needs to be there, but it's clearly a notch below the rest of the film). But the space chase does work really well, because it's not about the chase. Basically all the events in the plot are character and theme driven. That long slow sequence is meant to:

-highlight the cruel arrogant overconfidence of Hux, Snoke, and the First Order (which is responsible for Snoke's ultimate death at Ren's hands)
-enhance the feeling of powerlessness that Poe feels
-make Holdo seem ineffectual so that we're rooting for Poe to betray her
-serve as a reminder of how hopelessly outclasses/outgunned the Resistance is, and convey a sense of inevitability and finality (even at the end of Jedi, when the Rebels are totally outgunned, they are still fighting back, there is still a chance, they still have the ability to act)
-the inevitability of the sequence is drawing attention to the gradual snuffing out of hope that Luke/Rey rekindle in the end.

But it mostly fails at doing those things. Instead it makes The First Order seem incompetent, as if there's plenty of options for the rebels to escape, and makes the movie overall seem at a loss of ideas.

If you feel that way fair enough. Just don't judge it by the standards of a 'chase' since that's what it is on only the most superficial of levels.

And the First Order is intended to look somewhat incompetent because

A: if it wasn't the movie would have been over from moment one
B: The reason WHY it is incompetent is extremely important. The First Order keeps screwing up because of the arrogance of its senior leadership (Snoke, Hux, and Kylo), or due to their own personal failings (which again, is why it's a character driven sequence). When you watch again, one thing to notice is that once Snoke dies and Hux is humbled and terrified (and because he knows Kylo won't put up with him) Hux actually becomes quite competent. The screw ups after Snoke's death are related to Kylo's obsession.

So again, it's not incompetence, it is arrogance, which is in line with the hubris associated with the Empire/First Order throughout the OT (it is all over the Battle of Endor, the throne room, and the space battle where the imperial fleet specifically chooses to not destroy the rebel fleet just so the emperor can toy with them).

There is a level of incompetence but its part of their character arcs as well. In most star wars movies we generally see this growing into adulthood by our hero's and how they adapt to the challenges that the universe ends up placing on their shoulders. This time we are also seeing that play out in our villains. Kylo and Hux are young and inexperienced compared to Moff Tarkin, Darth Vader, palpataine etc...

These are all new entities that have risen from the fall of the OT. And I love it.

we have three whole movies of Darth Vader being an obnoxious little twit.

[Strat]

i assumed that's what he was talking about

He was. i glanced too fast over it.

yea, its fantastic.

[Strat]

Yes, that space chase was something special. Although Canto Bight really topped it.

As before, I'm not a fan of the canto bight chase at the end. That's the only real misfire in the movie (the rest of the stuff there is okay, and I get why it needs to be there, but it's clearly a notch below the rest of the film). But the space chase does work really well, because it's not about the chase. Basically all the events in the plot are character and theme driven. That long slow sequence is meant to:

-highlight the cruel arrogant overconfidence of Hux, Snoke, and the First Order (which is responsible for Snoke's ultimate death at Ren's hands)
-enhance the feeling of powerlessness that Poe feels
-make Holdo seem ineffectual so that we're rooting for Poe to betray her
-serve as a reminder of how hopelessly outclasses/outgunned the Resistance is, and convey a sense of inevitability and finality (even at the end of Jedi, when the Rebels are totally outgunned, they are still fighting back, there is still a chance, they still have the ability to act)
-the inevitability of the sequence is drawing attention to the gradual snuffing out of hope that Luke/Rey rekindle in the end.

But it mostly fails at doing those things. Instead it makes The First Order seem incompetent, as if there's plenty of options for the rebels to escape, and makes the movie overall seem at a loss of ideas.

If you feel that way fair enough. Just don't judge it by the standards of a 'chase' since that's what it is on only the most superficial of levels.

And the First Order is intended to look somewhat incompetent because

A: if it wasn't the movie would have been over from moment one
B: The reason WHY it is incompetent is extremely important. The First Order keeps screwing up because of the arrogance of its senior leadership (Snoke, Hux, and Kylo), or due to their own personal failings (which again, is why it's a character driven sequence). When you watch again, one thing to notice is that once Snoke dies and Hux is humbled and terrified (and because he knows Kylo won't put up with him) Hux actually becomes quite competent. The screw ups after Snoke's death are related to Kylo's obsession.

So again, it's not incompetence, it is arrogance, which is in line with the hubris associated with the Empire/First Order throughout the OT (it is all over the Battle of Endor, the throne room, and the space battle where the imperial fleet specifically chooses to not destroy the rebel fleet just so the emperor can toy with them).

There is a level of incompetence but its part of their character arcs as well. In most star wars movies we generally see this growing into adulthood by our hero's and how they adapt to the challenges that the universe ends up placing on their shoulders. This time we are also seeing that play out in our villains. Kylo and Hux are young and inexperienced compared to Moff Tarkin, Darth Vader, palpataine etc...

These are all new entities that have risen from the fall of the OT. And I love it.

we have three whole movies of Darth Vader being an obnoxious little twit.

Yea, i mean, i think that is different than what is going on here.

[stip]

I wasn't intending to disagree. I think this is something much more sophisticated (certainly in terms of the storytelling)

[Strat]

I wasn't intending to disagree. I think this is something much more sophisticated (certainly in terms of the storytelling)

I like that the First Order falters under the leadership of Ren and Hux. Im guessing things will be much different by whenever the next movie picks up.

[dimejinky99]

While you’re all here.
I watched with Rians commentary on and it’s rather disappointing when you then watch the TFA commentary with JJ. JJ gets into the story points and why things are happening that way and gives you the characters thinking.

Rian just talks about random cameos from the crew and why a shot was done like that.
It’s kinda poor as commentaries go. There is some story point stuff but nothing at all like I’d hoped.

[run2death]

But it mostly fails at doing those things. Instead it makes The First Order seem incompetent, as if there's plenty of options for the rebels to escape, and makes the movie overall seem at a loss of ideas.

Yup.

[Anders]

The documentary is good. Hard to compare to a big production Hollywood movie like The Last Jedi, but it does do a better job of telling a straightforward story.

[dimejinky99]

But it mostly fails at doing those things. Instead it makes The First Order seem incompetent, as if there's plenty of options for the rebels to escape, and makes the movie overall seem at a loss of ideas.

Yup.

The empire failed to crush the rebels over something like 20 years or whatever. And suffered major defeats at the hands of the rebels at scariff, stealing plans for the Death Star, at yavin, blowing up said Death Star, and in a show of the arrogance previously mentioned, by the emperor himself giving them info for his own final destruction at Death Star two over Endor.

A poorly equipped rabble have been beating the empire for years and handed them several defeats (without even mentioning events in Rebels where it’s more of the same. Much more)


The empire was far more incompetent than the first order. And for far longer.

[dimejinky99]

The documentary is good. Hard to compare to a big production Hollywood movie like The Last Jedi, but it does do a better job of telling a straightforward story.

Go on.

[Anders]

Not fully finished yet.

[Anders]

I’m just a little bit surprised that I like Rian so much. He seems like a cool guy. Great way of working with Carrie.

Hamill speaks to me though. Everything he says is from my heart.

[dimejinky99]

I’m just a little bit surprised that I like Rian so much. He seems like a cool guy. Great way of working with Carrie.

Hamill speaks to me though. Everything he says is from my heart.

Wait til you see the final scene / alternate take with Carrie. It’s heartbreaking

[Anders]

The sad thing is when you see how many brilliant people are involved, the cost and the talent, the setting, the history and the setup for brilliance, that they didn’t make a better story.

[dimejinky99]

The sad thing is when you see how many brilliant people are involved, the cost and the talent, the setting, the history and the setup for brilliance, that they didn’t make a better story.

They made a brilliant story though. You just didn’t like it.

[epilogue]

The chase is the equivalent of a villain's long monologue before the killing blow. It's a trope for sure, but not a dealbreaker.

I thought it was cool for the series to introduce the concept of fuel in such a major way.

Exactly.

It also helps illustrate the main flaw in The First Order. Just like the Empire in the OT, TFO is an allegory for modern real life politics. TFO is a Trumpian villain. Their primary flaw is that they believe #WINNING is the best thing and the only way to #WIN is bigger, better, faster, More! I love how their hubris and arrogance is their undoing.

[epilogue]

Honestly, if you guys enjoyed it .

I really wish I could. SW was such a huge part of my life growing up and now I just find it tedious and stupid.

I don't think the advancements in film technology have done SW any favors (or at least its use of those advancements).

It's all too clean. It's lost its B movie/cheesy quality and that's made the stupid plot points, bad acting and inconsistencies more unforgivable.

Interesting. I actually think those B movie elements are on full display in TLJ and that's why I ultimately like it more than TFA, though both are excellent.

[Anders]

The sad thing is when you see how many brilliant people are involved, the cost and the talent, the setting, the history and the setup for brilliance, that they didn’t make a better story.

They made a brilliant story though. You just didn’t like it.

I liked it better subjectively than I as objectively as is humanly possible consider its strenght.