Star Wars: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

[Anders]

I really don’t like or agree with how Rian views the Jedi, which is shown clearly in the Balance Of The Force extra.

I would have agreed but his position is exactly Lucas’ position on the Jedi in the prequels. The point of those movies is to show the fall of the Jedi due to their own complacency and hubris. That’s what the prequels are about. It makes perfect sense Luke after having researched and explored would reach the same conclusion. And that narrative following through from that time to luke at this point also makes complete sense.

One does not make the other right, which Lucas might also agree with, as his only quote on the movie was that it was beautifully made.

Clearly the Jedi failed in the PT, but the OT made up for it. Luke was the new hope, the new Jedi. He learnt from the old ways, and he succeeded. So there is no longer a need to tear down. The Jedi successfully defended the galaxy for more than a thousand years.

Yeah, I never understood why the Jedi must be reformed or something. For over a thousand generations the jedi have been the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy. Before the dark times, before the Empire. So for 1000 generations everything was cool. Then one generation a threat comes along that causes an issue. The threat is resolved with the next generation (Luke), appearing to bring the Jedi back on track again.

But the Jedi suck and should end? Makes no sense.

You are correct. They Jedi Order didn’t see Palpatine/Sidious coming and became arrogant, so according to this story they must now be destroyed forever.

[Strat]

I really don’t like or agree with how Rian views the Jedi, which is shown clearly in the Balance Of The Force extra.

I would have agreed but his position is exactly Lucas’ position on the Jedi in the prequels. The point of those movies is to show the fall of the Jedi due to their own complacency and hubris. That’s what the prequels are about. It makes perfect sense Luke after having researched and explored would reach the same conclusion. And that narrative following through from that time to luke at this point also makes complete sense.

One does not make the other right, which Lucas might also agree with, as his only quote on the movie was that it was beautifully made.

Clearly the Jedi failed in the PT, but the OT made up for it. Luke was the new hope, the new Jedi. He learnt from the old ways, and he succeeded. So there is no longer a need to tear down. The Jedi successfully defended the galaxy for more than a thousand years.

Yeah, I never understood why the Jedi must be reformed or something. For over a thousand generations the jedi have been the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy. Before the dark times, before the Empire. So for 1000 generations everything was cool. Then one generation a threat comes along that causes an issue. The threat is resolved with the next generation (Luke), appearing to bring the Jedi back on track again.

But the Jedi suck and should end? Makes no sense.

You are correct. They Jedi Order didn’t see Palpatine/Sidious coming and became arrogant, so according to this story they must now be destroyed forever.

Yea but this feels rather simplistic? Its not unreasonable to think that we dont know the entire story. And also, only the Jedi believed they were right in feeling justification in "being the guardians of peace and justice" which is right in line with "hubris" that Luke discusses.

Also, Luke's failure to teach Kylo Ren is also part of this. He is also responsible for failure due to hits belief that the Jedi are all knowing and powerful. His failure with that plays into his belief that the Jedi must end.

he's also not saying the force should end or people shouldnt tap into it. His lesson to Rey is....it does not belong to the Jedi. Thats it. he wants the Jedi to end.

The Jedi still might end, and what Luke has so far taught to Rey, and her experiences....She may move forward with a different view of the force and the Jedi's role in the Galaxy.

[epilogue]

I really don’t like or agree with how Rian views the Jedi, which is shown clearly in the Balance Of The Force extra.

I would have agreed but his position is exactly Lucas’ position on the Jedi in the prequels. The point of those movies is to show the fall of the Jedi due to their own complacency and hubris. That’s what the prequels are about. It makes perfect sense Luke after having researched and explored would reach the same conclusion. And that narrative following through from that time to luke at this point also makes complete sense.

One does not make the other right, which Lucas might also agree with, as his only quote on the movie was that it was beautifully made.

Clearly the Jedi failed in the PT, but the OT made up for it. Luke was the new hope, the new Jedi. He learnt from the old ways, and he succeeded. So there is no longer a need to tear down. The Jedi successfully defended the galaxy for more than a thousand years.

Yeah, I never understood why the Jedi must be reformed or something. For over a thousand generations the jedi have been the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy. Before the dark times, before the Empire. So for 1000 generations everything was cool. Then one generation a threat comes along that causes an issue. The threat is resolved with the next generation (Luke), appearing to bring the Jedi back on track again.

But the Jedi suck and should end? Makes no sense. Even with Rey wanting to bring the Jedi back properly still makes Luke look like an idiot for thinking the Jedi must end since the Jedi Academy fiasco.

I think Lucas was trying to show the complacency of the Jedi in the PT, but I think Rian Johnson misinterprets this as the Jedi being cruddy for the thousand generations that they were fighting for peace and justice.

The more the Jedi are developed throughout the movies (and EU) the more it's pulled away from the simplistic examples of the Force/Jedi that the OT dealt with superbly, which in my opinion, feels like a detriment to the universe as a whole.

Lucas was writing as he went along. That's where the wires got crossed. Lucas doesn't give a shit about canon consistency. He had stories he wanted to tell and he told them. But they were personal to him. The idea/theory of the Jedi evolved with Lucas and his own experiences.

By the time he made the PT films, he'd become increasingly disenfranchised and suspicious of the studio system and corporations. So, of course, that manifested in the story-telling. Lucas saw the hubris and arrogance of corporations in the Jedi system and he commented on it as such. It makes total sense that the guy who felt betrayed by a flawed system needed to explore that in his fiction. The Jedi became the system he wanted to take that out on.

Rian isn't misinterpreting Lucas at all. He's giving you Luke's new point of view. And Luke's point of view is flawed. It isn't time for the Jedi to end and the movie makes that point crystal clear. Luke is wrong. He's over-correcting. He's clouded by his own failure and projecting (ha! see what I did there?) his shit onto the Jedi. But the message of The Last Jedi, the point of the film is not "the Jedi were cruddy for a thousand generations while they were fighting for peace and justice." And really Luke knows deep down that he doesn't even mean it. If he truly believed the things he says, he would have torched that tree and those books long before Rey ever showed up.

I like that these things are complex and not overly simplified. Whether we're talking nature of the Force, nature of the Jedi, prophecy, legacy, midichlorians, whatever, it all comes back to Obi-Wan's line about a certain point of view.

[Strat]

And also, Luke comes around by the end.

"We are what they grow beyond" via teachings from Yoda, still.

Learning from both successes and failures from student/teacher.

[epilogue]

And also, Luke comes around by the end.

"We are what they grow beyond" via teachings from Yoda, still.

Learning from both successes and failures from student/teacher.

Yep, yep. Luke even explicitly tells Kylo that he (Luke) will NOT be the last Jedi.

[Strat]

And also, Luke comes around by the end.

"We are what they grow beyond" via teachings from Yoda, still.

Learning from both successes and failures from student/teacher.

Yep, yep. Luke even explicitly tells Kylo that he (Luke) will NOT be the last Jedi.

A movie of struggle, acceptance, failures, complexity, knowledge, growth....You know. Life!

I love this movie and the themes more and more every time i think about it.

[Anders]

I really don’t like or agree with how Rian views the Jedi, which is shown clearly in the Balance Of The Force extra.

I would have agreed but his position is exactly Lucas’ position on the Jedi in the prequels. The point of those movies is to show the fall of the Jedi due to their own complacency and hubris. That’s what the prequels are about. It makes perfect sense Luke after having researched and explored would reach the same conclusion. And that narrative following through from that time to luke at this point also makes complete sense.

One does not make the other right, which Lucas might also agree with, as his only quote on the movie was that it was beautifully made.

Clearly the Jedi failed in the PT, but the OT made up for it. Luke was the new hope, the new Jedi. He learnt from the old ways, and he succeeded. So there is no longer a need to tear down. The Jedi successfully defended the galaxy for more than a thousand years.

Yeah, I never understood why the Jedi must be reformed or something. For over a thousand generations the jedi have been the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy. Before the dark times, before the Empire. So for 1000 generations everything was cool. Then one generation a threat comes along that causes an issue. The threat is resolved with the next generation (Luke), appearing to bring the Jedi back on track again.

But the Jedi suck and should end? Makes no sense.

You are correct. They Jedi Order didn’t see Palpatine/Sidious coming and became arrogant, so according to this story they must now be destroyed forever.

Yea but this feels rather simplistic? Its not unreasonable to think that we dont know the entire story. And also, only the Jedi believed they were right in feeling justification in "being the guardians of peace and justice" which is right in line with "hubris" that Luke discusses.

Also, Luke's failure to teach Kylo Ren is also part of this. He is also responsible for failure due to his belief that the Jedi are all knowing and powerful. His failure with that plays into his belief that the Jedi must end.

he's also not saying the force should end or people shouldnt tap into it. His lesson to Rey is....it does not belong to the Jedi. Thats it. he wants the Jedi to end.

The Jedi still might end, and what Luke has so far taught to Rey, and her experiences....She may move forward with a different view of the force and the Jedi's role in the Galaxy.

The Jedi believed they were the guardians of peace and justice for a reason. No one thinks the Red Cross or Doctors Without Borders are doing evil stuff, because all they do is help.

Luke does fail with Kylo Ren, but his giving up on the Jedi does not feel consistent with the character.

Yes, what Rey will do remains a mystery. Thankfully we have JJ making ep IX.

[Anders]

I’m 12 minutes in now. Watching it at home for the first time.

[stip]

i hate that chosen one prophecy so much - it makes no damn sense

One of the most overlooked (or under-considered) aspects of the prequel trilogy is Yoda's comment on the prophecy, thereby giving voice to Lucas's ideas about the flimsy and untrustworthy nature of prophecy. The point of the prophecy is that they got it wrong. Lucas via Yoda is trying to tell us not to put stock in prophecy. The Prophecy of the Chosen One makes no damn sense by design. It's not supposed to make sense. It's just a dumb prophecy. The Jedi putting their faith in it, is another flaw within the order as a whole.

Except this is undercut a bit by the virgin birth, isn't it. SOMETHING is going on - it's not just some mystical nonsense that an order of ascetic monks happen to believe

[stip]

I really don’t like or agree with how Rian views the Jedi, which is shown clearly in the Balance Of The Force extra.

I would have agreed but his position is exactly Lucas’ position on the Jedi in the prequels. The point of those movies is to show the fall of the Jedi due to their own complacency and hubris. That’s what the prequels are about. It makes perfect sense Luke after having researched and explored would reach the same conclusion. And that narrative following through from that time to luke at this point also makes complete sense.

One does not make the other right, which Lucas might also agree with, as his only quote on the movie was that it was beautifully made.

Clearly the Jedi failed in the PT, but the OT made up for it. Luke was the new hope, the new Jedi. He learnt from the old ways, and he succeeded. So there is no longer a need to tear down. The Jedi successfully defended the galaxy for more than a thousand years.

Yeah, I never understood why the Jedi must be reformed or something. For over a thousand generations the jedi have been the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy. Before the dark times, before the Empire. So for 1000 generations everything was cool. Then one generation a threat comes along that causes an issue. The threat is resolved with the next generation (Luke), appearing to bring the Jedi back on track again.

But the Jedi suck and should end? Makes no sense. Even with Rey wanting to bring the Jedi back properly still makes Luke look like an idiot for thinking the Jedi must end since the Jedi Academy fiasco.

I think Lucas was trying to show the complacency of the Jedi in the PT, but I think Rian Johnson misinterprets this as the Jedi being cruddy for the thousand generations that they were fighting for peace and justice.

The more the Jedi are developed throughout the movies (and EU) the more it's pulled away from the simplistic examples of the Force/Jedi that the OT dealt with superbly, which in my opinion, feels like a detriment to the universe as a whole.

Johnson doesn't misinterpret this - since he embraces this idea in the end. Luke, as a character, misinterprets this as he struggles to process his grief

[stip]

What Joey and Strat say

[epilogue]

i hate that chosen one prophecy so much - it makes no damn sense

One of the most overlooked (or under-considered) aspects of the prequel trilogy is Yoda's comment on the prophecy, thereby giving voice to Lucas's ideas about the flimsy and untrustworthy nature of prophecy. The point of the prophecy is that they got it wrong. Lucas via Yoda is trying to tell us not to put stock in prophecy. The Prophecy of the Chosen One makes no damn sense by design. It's not supposed to make sense. It's just a dumb prophecy. The Jedi putting their faith in it, is another flaw within the order as a whole.

Except this is undercut a bit by the virgin birth, isn't it. SOMETHING is going on - it's not just some mystical nonsense that an order of ascetic monks happen to believe

Not at all. The "Virgin Birth" is explained implicitly by Darth Sidious. It's a Dark Side move, a manipulation. It's no more mystical than the Force itself.

Sidious created Anakin, not divine intervention or some prophecy.

[dimejinky99]

i hate that chosen one prophecy so much - it makes no damn sense

One of the most overlooked (or under-considered) aspects of the prequel trilogy is Yoda's comment on the prophecy, thereby giving voice to Lucas's ideas about the flimsy and untrustworthy nature of prophecy. The point of the prophecy is that they got it wrong. Lucas via Yoda is trying to tell us not to put stock in prophecy. The Prophecy of the Chosen One makes no damn sense by design. It's not supposed to make sense. It's just a dumb prophecy. The Jedi putting their faith in it, is another flaw within the order as a whole.

Except this is undercut a bit by the virgin birth, isn't it. SOMETHING is going on - it's not just some mystical nonsense that an order of ascetic monks happen to believe

Not at all. The "Virgin Birth" is explained implicitly by Darth Sidious. It's a Dark Side move, a manipulation. It's no more mystical than the Force itself.

Sidious created Anakin, not divine intervention or some prophecy.

That’s not canon at all. It is something they have suggested and left dangling but it has no basis in truth

[stip]

Well Anakin's mom confirmed that it happened - you're referencing the Emperor intervention?

[epilogue]

i hate that chosen one prophecy so much - it makes no damn sense

One of the most overlooked (or under-considered) aspects of the prequel trilogy is Yoda's comment on the prophecy, thereby giving voice to Lucas's ideas about the flimsy and untrustworthy nature of prophecy. The point of the prophecy is that they got it wrong. Lucas via Yoda is trying to tell us not to put stock in prophecy. The Prophecy of the Chosen One makes no damn sense by design. It's not supposed to make sense. It's just a dumb prophecy. The Jedi putting their faith in it, is another flaw within the order as a whole.

Except this is undercut a bit by the virgin birth, isn't it. SOMETHING is going on - it's not just some mystical nonsense that an order of ascetic monks happen to believe

Not at all. The "Virgin Birth" is explained implicitly by Darth Sidious. It's a Dark Side move, a manipulation. It's no more mystical than the Force itself.

Sidious created Anakin, not divine intervention or some prophecy.

That’s not canon at all. It is something they have suggested and left dangling but it has no basis in truth

Like I said, it's 100% implied in the text of the films. Lucas did ultimately cut the scene that says it explicitly. But there is a huge basis in truth for it.

[epilogue]

Well Anakin's mom confirmed that it happened - you're referencing the Emperor intervention?

Shmi says there was no father. Qui-Gon then theorizes that Anakin was conceived by the midichlorians.

Palpatine tells Anakin that Darth Plagueis learned how influence and manipulate midichlorians in order to create life.

There is a version of the Revenge of the Sith script in which Palpatine literally says that he learned that skill from his master and created Anakin using midichlorians. Obviously, that scene was cut/changed for the final film. So the absolute explicit truth isn't there anymore. It goes unstated directly. However, all the dots are there. It's not a giant leap to connect them.

It's right there. Of course there is room for interpretation because George decided it was too on the nose to state all of this outright. But it's all right there. So technically it isn't strict canon, sure. You could make that argument. But it seems pretty fucking clear to me that that's what happened. And George wrote an explicit version in which he states it outright. George's vision, his ultimate story, was that Palpatine learned how to manipulate and influence midichlorians to create life from his master. He killed his master and then created life: Anakin.

[dimejinky99]

Not to ruin the pro life party or anything but it may have been toyed with but it isn’t canon. At all.

[Strat]

Dime is getting fussy.

[epilogue]

Not to ruin the pro life party or anything but it may have been toyed with but it isn’t canon. At all.

I've made it clear that I understand it isn't said outright. It's just an intelligent reading of the text and connecting dots that George left unconnected. This isn't some ridiculous out of nowhere theory. And it supports all of the stuff I've been saying in this thread, that you seem to really get off on, about the prophecy and how much of a red herring it is. It's all right there in the movies. Which are canon. So...

I'm just supporting my interpretation of the text. Obviously, you disagree. So, fine. It's no skin off my sack, buddy. *shrugs*

[dimejinky99]

I can’t find the piece but it’s explained somewhere that they backed away from Palpatine ‘creating’ Anakin for very good reasons but chief among them is he had to be the start of the story so if you give him a father, even one using dark magic, it opens up a whole new can of worms and needs explaining. ‘Who was his father’ to ‘are the Skywalkers a mighty force sensitive ancestry, so where are his ancestors?’ Etc would have been the topic and derailed attention away from this one small boy and what he came to mean and become in the galaxy.

In fairness to you and that that theory, they did jettison The plagueis book, but I’m betting it’s in order to properly develop that story and Palpatines and further as it relates to Anakin.
I’m in the virgin birth / force manisfesting Anakin is only slightly not as dumb as Balance and prophesy and midchlorians n all that. Lovely ideas and he had no idea when writing them that there’d be millions of sweaties for 40 years demanding answers to all this. But it’s best not to nail anything down in it, we can only speculate.

Speculate responsibly though.