Avengers: Infinity War 2018

[Jorge]

A cop-out? How?

[Monkey_Driven]

A cop-out? How?

It robs most of the emotional stakes/weight of the departures when you know most, if not all, of the characters are coming back. Hell, half of them have new movies in the pipeline.

I'm sure the characters left will use it as motivation in the next film, but it seems like such a tease to the audience. It's not like these characters were even killed by a specific action or choice. It was totally random!

[Stickman]

Agreed. I wasnt saddened by any of the deaths as they're obviously not permanent.

[Jorge]

A cop-out? How?

It robs most of the emotional stakes/weight of the departures when you know most, if not all, of the characters are coming back. Hell, half of them have new movies in the pipeline.

True, and that's a bummer. But within the movie itself the final scenes are executed so well. Like I've said before, if I could, I'd make this the final MCU movie. It'd be a wonderful ending.

[Monkey_Driven]

A cop-out? How?

It robs most of the emotional stakes/weight of the departures when you know most, if not all, of the characters are coming back. Hell, half of them have new movies in the pipeline.

True, and that's a bummer. But within the movie itself the final scenes are executed so well. Like I've said before, if I could, I'd make this the final MCU movie. It'd be a wonderful ending.

They are executed well, but these individual movies don't exist in a vacuum, as the cinematic universe has made every effort to promote.

[bune]

A cop-out? How?

It robs most of the emotional stakes/weight of the departures when you know most, if not all, of the characters are coming back. Hell, half of them have new movies in the pipeline.

I'm sure the characters left will use it as motivation in the next film, but it seems like such a tease to the audience. It's not like these characters were even killed by a specific action or choice. It was totally random!

You people have lost your imagination. Stop thinking logically and just revel in the story on the screen.

I'm not even aping anyone here, I mean it. For all intents and purposes, those people are dead. It's a comic book movie so yeah it's probably not permanent (even Loki, yes) but for the story itself, they're dead.

[Monkey_Driven]

A cop-out? How?

It robs most of the emotional stakes/weight of the departures when you know most, if not all, of the characters are coming back. Hell, half of them have new movies in the pipeline.

I'm sure the characters left will use it as motivation in the next film, but it seems like such a tease to the audience. It's not like these characters were even killed by a specific action or choice. It was totally random!

You people have lost your imagination. Stop thinking logically and just revel in the story on the screen.

I'm not even aping anyone here, I mean it. For all intents and purposes, those people are dead. It's a comic book movie so yeah it's probably not permanent (even Loki, yes) but for the story itself, they're dead.

Why should we believe anything in a world of time stones where time can be manipulated? I am thinking in the context of the story on screen.

[stip]

A cop-out? How?

It robs most of the emotional stakes/weight of the departures when you know most, if not all, of the characters are coming back. Hell, half of them have new movies in the pipeline.

I'm sure the characters left will use it as motivation in the next film, but it seems like such a tease to the audience. It's not like these characters were even killed by a specific action or choice. It was totally random!

You people have lost your imagination. Stop thinking logically and just revel in the story on the screen.

I'm not even aping anyone here, I mean it. For all intents and purposes, those people are dead. It's a comic book movie so yeah it's probably not permanent (even Loki, yes) but for the story itself, they're dead.

you know when an actor dies in a movie usually the actor isn't really dead either. You shouldn't need to know with permanence that the performer is dead, or the actor is off his contract, or doesn't want to play the role anymore, to have some degree of assurance that the death has meaning, especially in a fantastical medium. When you're in the context of a story it is only fair to judge the story based on how well it is executed, and it was executed beautifully in Infinity War.

Now we know that many of these characters will come back somehow, and the way they tell that story may well reframe that ending. It could make it more powerful. It could rob it of its impact. Coming back after Avengers IV to reassess makes some sense since the story is complete. But even if Avengers 4 undermines this ending (and characters coming back does not inherently undermine it - especially if there are other costs involved. it remains to be seen how its done), at this moment in the narrative things are powerful.

It's not a 'death' per se, but most people don't argue that Han being frozen in carbonite is a less powerful moment because he is later rescued. It works beautifully in the moment, and the story manages to bring him back in a way that doesn't sacrifice that moment.

[stip]

More like Avengers: Exposition War, amirite?

also, I think you're probably wrong here. There was comparatively little exposition here. The movie assumed people were up to date and didn't really take too much time to get them caught up. The Red Skull bit was a good example of that.

[stip]

A cop-out? How?

It robs most of the emotional stakes/weight of the departures when you know most, if not all, of the characters are coming back. Hell, half of them have new movies in the pipeline.

I'm sure the characters left will use it as motivation in the next film, but it seems like such a tease to the audience. It's not like these characters were even killed by a specific action or choice. It was totally random!

You people have lost your imagination. Stop thinking logically and just revel in the story on the screen.

I'm not even aping anyone here, I mean it. For all intents and purposes, those people are dead. It's a comic book movie so yeah it's probably not permanent (even Loki, yes) but for the story itself, they're dead.

Why should we believe anything in a world of time stones where time can be manipulated? I am thinking in the context of the story on screen.

Within the context of the story on screen the ability to manipulate time comes from the infinity gem that the Avengers do not control, so that option is currently off the table for them.

[Monkey_Driven]

More like Avengers: Exposition War, amirite?

also, I think you're probably wrong here. There was comparatively little exposition here. The movie assumed people were up to date and didn't really take too much time to get them caught up. The Red Skull bit was a good example of that.

That was a joke stip.

A cop-out? How?

It robs most of the emotional stakes/weight of the departures when you know most, if not all, of the characters are coming back. Hell, half of them have new movies in the pipeline.

I'm sure the characters left will use it as motivation in the next film, but it seems like such a tease to the audience. It's not like these characters were even killed by a specific action or choice. It was totally random!

You people have lost your imagination. Stop thinking logically and just revel in the story on the screen.

I'm not even aping anyone here, I mean it. For all intents and purposes, those people are dead. It's a comic book movie so yeah it's probably not permanent (even Loki, yes) but for the story itself, they're dead.

you know when an actor dies in a movie usually the actor isn't really dead either. You shouldn't need to know with permanence that the performer is dead, or the actor is off his contract, or doesn't want to play the role anymore, to have some degree of assurance that the death has meaning, especially in a fantastical medium. When you're in the context of a story it is only fair to judge the story based on how well it is executed, and it was executed beautifully in Infinity War.

Now we know that many of these characters will come back somehow, and the way they tell that story may well reframe that ending. It could make it more powerful. It could rob it of its impact. Coming back after Avengers IV to reassess makes some sense since the story is complete. But even if Avengers 4 undermines this ending (and characters coming back does not inherently undermine it - especially if there are other costs involved. it remains to be seen how its done), at this moment in the narrative things are powerful.

It's not a 'death' per se, but most people don't argue that Han being frozen in carbonite is a less powerful moment because he is later rescued. It works beautifully in the moment, and the story manages to bring him back in a way that doesn't sacrifice that moment.

I really don't agree with the comparison of Han and this at all. In Empire they say his stats are steady immediately after it happens.

[Monkey_Driven]

A cop-out? How?

It robs most of the emotional stakes/weight of the departures when you know most, if not all, of the characters are coming back. Hell, half of them have new movies in the pipeline.

I'm sure the characters left will use it as motivation in the next film, but it seems like such a tease to the audience. It's not like these characters were even killed by a specific action or choice. It was totally random!

You people have lost your imagination. Stop thinking logically and just revel in the story on the screen.

I'm not even aping anyone here, I mean it. For all intents and purposes, those people are dead. It's a comic book movie so yeah it's probably not permanent (even Loki, yes) but for the story itself, they're dead.

Why should we believe anything in a world of time stones where time can be manipulated? I am thinking in the context of the story on screen.

Within the context of the story on screen the ability to manipulate time comes from the infinity gem that the Avengers do not control, so that option is currently off the table for them.

And Ant-Man has the ability to go into the "sub atomic" place where time and matter behave differently. Time travel or components have been introduced. It is impossible to ignore those capabilities when thinking how these characters can "save the day" regardless of if they possess one tool for it or not.

[stip]

they filmed that ending because they weren't sure if he was coming back from Jedi and wanted to cover their bases. The point being it is a down ending not undone by the happier follow up. Likewise I never felt Obi Wan's sacrifice was any less cheap because he came back as a force ghost.



In some ways this reminds me of some of the complaints about TLJ with Snoke's lack of backstory. Most characters who are not your primary antagonist/protagonist don't get backstories. We get nothing in the OT by way of backstory for Han Solo or Obi Wan or the Emperor or Even Vader (certainly not more than we got for Snoke). And that's fine because their backstories are not necessary for the story. But in a world of exhaustive wookiepedia entries for even the most minor of star wars characters we can bring with us the expectation that we should be able to interact with the characters in the film as encyclopedia entries rather than characters in a moment in service of a story. Snoke's backstory might be an interesting thing to learn about outside of the movie, but it doesn't necessarily belong in the movie. It's bringing in expectations that exist outside of the story and baking them into the story.

Likewise, in a world of entertainment news and production schedules and contracts you can meta analyze a story and draw some probable conclusions. But it's not really the stories fault that you are doing that, nor is it their responsibility to account for that.

[stip]

A cop-out? How?

It robs most of the emotional stakes/weight of the departures when you know most, if not all, of the characters are coming back. Hell, half of them have new movies in the pipeline.

I'm sure the characters left will use it as motivation in the next film, but it seems like such a tease to the audience. It's not like these characters were even killed by a specific action or choice. It was totally random!

You people have lost your imagination. Stop thinking logically and just revel in the story on the screen.

I'm not even aping anyone here, I mean it. For all intents and purposes, those people are dead. It's a comic book movie so yeah it's probably not permanent (even Loki, yes) but for the story itself, they're dead.

Why should we believe anything in a world of time stones where time can be manipulated? I am thinking in the context of the story on screen.

Within the context of the story on screen the ability to manipulate time comes from the infinity gem that the Avengers do not control, so that option is currently off the table for them.

And Ant-Man has the ability to go into the "sub atomic" place where time and matter behave differently. Time travel or components have been introduced. It is impossible to ignore those capabilities when thinking how these characters can "save the day" regardless of if they possess one tool for it or not.

True, and I assume that will be the mechanic that gets used. But if you're really hung up on this then that's a larger issue with the genre, rather than this particular story. 'Magic' exists, which means the impact of a death will need to be judged by how it is used in the context of its story, rather than the fact of its permanence.

[Monkey_Driven]

A cop-out? How?

It robs most of the emotional stakes/weight of the departures when you know most, if not all, of the characters are coming back. Hell, half of them have new movies in the pipeline.

I'm sure the characters left will use it as motivation in the next film, but it seems like such a tease to the audience. It's not like these characters were even killed by a specific action or choice. It was totally random!

You people have lost your imagination. Stop thinking logically and just revel in the story on the screen.

I'm not even aping anyone here, I mean it. For all intents and purposes, those people are dead. It's a comic book movie so yeah it's probably not permanent (even Loki, yes) but for the story itself, they're dead.

Why should we believe anything in a world of time stones where time can be manipulated? I am thinking in the context of the story on screen.

Within the context of the story on screen the ability to manipulate time comes from the infinity gem that the Avengers do not control, so that option is currently off the table for them.

And Ant-Man has the ability to go into the "sub atomic" place where time and matter behave differently. Time travel or components have been introduced. It is impossible to ignore those capabilities when thinking how these characters can "save the day" regardless of if they possess one tool for it or not.

True, and I assume that will be the mechanic that gets used. But if you're really hung up on this then that's a larger issue with the genre, rather than this particular story. 'Magic' exists, which means the impact of a death will need to be judged by how it is used in the context of its story, rather than the fact of its permanence.

I found the death of Gamorra far more effective.

[dimejinky99]

Snoke would kick Thanos’ arse. Gauntlet or no.

[E.H. Ruddock]

Snoke would kick Thanos’ arse. Gauntlet or no.

Snoke couldn't even survive his own apprentice

[dimejinky99]

Snoke would kick Thanos’ arse. Gauntlet or no.

Snoke couldn't even survive his own apprentice

Because of his own arrogance.
Thanos is quite like kylo. You hate him but you end up relating to him and his goal.
And floating Thor in space / floating Leia in space.

Goddamn Disney cookie cutter bullshit.

They’re all out of ideas.

[Monkey_Driven]

In some ways this reminds me of some of the complaints about TLJ with Snoke's lack of backstory. Most characters who are not your primary antagonist/protagonist don't get backstories. We get nothing in the OT by way of backstory for Han Solo or Obi Wan or the Emperor or Even Vader (certainly not more than we got for Snoke). And that's fine because their backstories are not necessary for the story. But in a world of exhaustive wookiepedia entries for even the most minor of star wars characters we can bring with us the expectation that we should be able to interact with the characters in the film as encyclopedia entries rather than characters in a moment in service of a story. Snoke's backstory might be an interesting thing to learn about outside of the movie, but it doesn't necessarily belong in the movie. It's bringing in expectations that exist outside of the story and baking them into the story.

What are you even taking about here? The Marvel characters have had 18 movies prior to tell their backstories and establish relationships with one another. Movies the audience is expected to have seen prior to this. I don't really see the comparison at all. Snoke's death was shocking/funny/impactful because it moved the story forward for the main character of Kylo. He was never a main character. Outside of Gamora, the deaths in this film were random. Not the result of a choice, hubris, or specific action for most of these characters. We will see how the surviving characters deal with the fallout and maybe my opinion will change, but for now, it seems like a cop out.

[bada]

As someone who endlessly complains about CGI bad guys I was shocked by how much I liked Thanos. There were certainly moments that looked like crap but there were more that I bought completely. Great job by Brolin and the effects team. Loved the Black Order too.

Spoiler: show

The end with Spidey was tough. Kids good. I'm assuming Gamora is trapped in the stone. Guessing Dr Strange saved Tony cause he was the variable in the one future reality were they won.

Who knows they can write any ending they want with that gauntlet. I don't know why but I think Black Panther's sister will be Ironheart one day. That has nothing to do with anything but I writing it down for posterity. I'm a DC guy but after this I don't see why WB should even bother.