Kendrick Lamar is better than Soundgarden

[tree_]

1. I'm not suggesting your suffering is +/- a typical black man's, only that they are inherently different.

2. Your thoughts on group vs. personal identity feels very black-and-white to me; it feels like an ideology. I don't get down with ideologies; I prefer the right attitude for the right time. Example: A large group of women saying "#MeToo! This behavior has to stop!" is a great step for all women; but the political and media assault on Sen. Al Franken felt completely disingenuous given the details of the accusations against him. That right there is a time where the group preceded the individual, and I think the world is a worse place for it.

I would argue that most peoples' sort of suffering is inherently different, based upon a variety of factors, skin color being only one.

You're right, I don't know much about the state of culture or the world and the specific steps to fix big problems. I try to figure out the best goals to be as healthy and happy an individual as possible and I think despite the state of my life and how closely I get to achieving them, good ideas are still good and bad are still bad, and it's important to constantly seek the good ones out and refine them as best as possible, my tool being personal experience, mostly. As I said before, I don't think viewing my opinions 'from the mouth of a white man' is any more fair than 'from the mouth of a black man' and I think these are harmful and unproductive.

But the very vernacular you are using suggests a higher level of education than the majority of black men, and I know enough about your lifestyle (fishing in the evening, gated community, pool, etc) to know that you enjoy a relatively high quality of life. And I've spent enough time working with low-income black people to know that none of that stuff is even on their radar, because:

1. When you're systemically disenfranchised from education, financial resources, good health care;
2. Have low availability of nutrient-rich foods;
3. Are raised in a community rife with criminal convictions, absentee fathers, drug addiction;
4. Are racially profiled and made to feel inferior in even the most benign of circumstances;

...your whole focus simply becomes making it to the next meal without some sort of calamity pulling you further down. And for people who are suffering that lifestyle, some group identity solutions -- like affirmative action, anti-discriminatory financial lending policies, food stamps, etc -- do hold a lot of merit.

The problem then becomes one of engaging the individual, who is now fully plugged into and reliant on the gov't welfare system, to fully understand their unique challenges in hopes of weaning them off that system and empowering them to have greater agency and fulfillment in their lives.

But how does any of this argue against my idea that it is better to be viewed as an individual, in general? And why would it ever be necessary to say that because someone is a white man they should not have an opinion on a matter?

[VinylGuy]

Guys, lets not forget that:

Lamar was an asshole no matter what skin color he had.


Go on.

[tragabigzanda]

[tree_]

But how does any of this argue against my idea that it is better to be viewed as an individual, in general?

Because the group identity solutions are a relatively efficient way for a highly inefficient government to address multiple people with similar problems in one fell swoop.

And why would it ever be necessary to say that because someone is a white man they should not have an opinion on a matter?

I don't think anyone is saying that. I think we are saying that your proposal that the individual is more important than the group is not an outlook that fits uniformly across the entirety of human experience.

I'm saying it's the best idea and it should be striven for, hiccups and all. The state of affairs should not disintegrate good ideas or corrupt us into adopting bad ones.

[tragabigzanda]

[tree_]

But if the ideas are not viable, then shouldn't a group solution be considered?

Example: Thousands of black families are denied home loans every year simply because of the color of their skin (the systemic approach is technically related to their zip code, but the practice of "red lining" is widely accepted to be a sort of race-based gerrymandering for financial lenders).

Is it practical for every black family that gets denied a loan to take up a legal case at either the state or federal level, thereby gumming up the works of the legal system and likely putting those families further into debt for the pursuant legal fees? Or is perhaps a more widespread policy solution, like changes to red-lining laws, a more practical solution to a widespread problem?

Sure, if it's the most viable solution, but it shouldn't take an endemic claim over unnecessary aspects of society at large.

[tragabigzanda]

Top 10 maybe?
Hello Morning
Close Captioned
The Kill
Place/Position
Do You Like Me?
Latest Disgrace
Recap Modotti
Nightshop
Break
Life & Limb

I'd maybe bump Life & Limb for Epic Problem

[tree_]

But if the ideas are not viable, then shouldn't a group solution be considered?

Example: Thousands of black families are denied home loans every year simply because of the color of their skin (the systemic approach is technically related to their zip code, but the practice of "red lining" is widely accepted to be a sort of race-based gerrymandering for financial lenders).

Is it practical for every black family that gets denied a loan to take up a legal case at either the state or federal level, thereby gumming up the works of the legal system and likely putting those families further into debt for the pursuant legal fees? Or is perhaps a more widespread policy solution, like changes to red-lining laws, a more practical solution to a widespread problem?

Sure, if it's the most viable solution, but it shouldn't take an endemic claim over unnecessary aspects of society at large.

what?

It should be viewed as a viable solution to a problem, not the correct way to view human beings.

[tragabigzanda]

[tree_]

But if the ideas are not viable, then shouldn't a group solution be considered?

Example: Thousands of black families are denied home loans every year simply because of the color of their skin (the systemic approach is technically related to their zip code, but the practice of "red lining" is widely accepted to be a sort of race-based gerrymandering for financial lenders).

Is it practical for every black family that gets denied a loan to take up a legal case at either the state or federal level, thereby gumming up the works of the legal system and likely putting those families further into debt for the pursuant legal fees? Or is perhaps a more widespread policy solution, like changes to red-lining laws, a more practical solution to a widespread problem?

Sure, if it's the most viable solution, but it shouldn't take an endemic claim over unnecessary aspects of society at large.

what?

It should be viewed as a viable solution to a problem, not the correct way to view human beings.

"Viewing human beings" sounds like an internal thought exercise; I thought we were talking about helping people. Could totally be my mistake.

I'm talking about being a little irked when reading things like 'a bunch of white men doing white men things'

[epilogue]

But if the ideas are not viable, then shouldn't a group solution be considered?

Example: Thousands of black families are denied home loans every year simply because of the color of their skin (the systemic approach is technically related to their zip code, but the practice of "red lining" is widely accepted to be a sort of race-based gerrymandering for financial lenders).

Is it practical for every black family that gets denied a loan to take up a legal case at either the state or federal level, thereby gumming up the works of the legal system and likely putting those families further into debt for the pursuant legal fees? Or is perhaps a more widespread policy solution, like changes to red-lining laws, a more practical solution to a widespread problem?

Sure, if it's the most viable solution, but it shouldn't take an endemic claim over unnecessary aspects of society at large.

what?

It should be viewed as a viable solution to a problem, not the correct way to view human beings.

"Viewing human beings" sounds like an internal thought exercise; I thought we were talking about helping people. Could totally be my mistake.

I'm also having trouble following. It feels like some goal-post moving happening but I'm really not sure.

[tragabigzanda]

[tree_]

... definitely not smart enough to move any goal posts...

[tragabigzanda]

[epilogue]

I call bullshit. That has never happened in the history of the internet.

[tree_]

Breaking: Two dudes on RM talking past each other for 30 minutes.

I appreciate your efforts at poverty reform and all, but I just don't want to be seen simply as a 'white man'.

[Norah]

Breaking: Two dudes on RM talking past each other for 30 minutes.

I appreciate your efforts at poverty reform and all, but I just don't want to be seen simply as a 'white man'.

if you think that acknowledging race and how that colors your worldview is the same as reducing one to being nothing but their race, well...

[tree_]

Breaking: Two dudes on RM talking past each other for 30 minutes.

I appreciate your efforts at poverty reform and all, but I just don't want to be seen simply as a 'white man'.

if you think that acknowledging race and how that colors your worldview is the same as reducing one to being nothing but their race, well...

Nope... that's what you were doing by saying shit like 'white men doing white things'. Race is one factor among many encompassing the vastness of human experience.

[bodysnatcher]

I would rather starve than read this thread...

[tragabigzanda]

Top 10 maybe?
Hello Morning
Close Captioned
The Kill
Place/Position
Do You Like Me?
Latest Disgrace
Recap Modotti
Nightshop
Break
Life & Limb

I'd maybe bump Life & Limb for Epic Problem