Pedantic Struggles: The All Encompassing Philosophy Thread™

[Noangel]

Collectivism in all its forms is the single greatest evil in the universe.

Spoiler: show

the same arguments against socialism and communism, as to why failure is inherent, holds true for American capitalism.


They all require massive gov't intervention-socialism/communism/capitalism- to continue their existence.....

Hmm. Massive government intervention kinda sounds like the opposite of capitalism.

bailouts?
great depression?
military industrial complex?

all evidence that US capitalism has not only failed, twice, massively, but that a massive gov't is required to sustain the current model.

Fractional Reserve banking is a thievery on par with nothing in human history.
You give a bank a dollar. They have to match that dollar, but they can loan out 90% of the deposit. And the recipient of the loan will probably deposit that into the bank, and the process repeats, again and again.
Essentially that 1$ deposit turns into ~3$. The number of dollars in circulation has increased, but the value of the currency has not, thus inflation. Its inherent in the monetary system. It might not seem important but essentially labor is being paid less and less, for every loan a bank makes, every deposit, every purchase. Its been said that for every dollar in circulation someone, somewhere owes a dollar to a bank or like institution.

So Americans work harder, and banks get more and more,.....and foreclose and take property and on and on.

A Yale professor gave a talk, he said that 20% of American potential was idle, while 10-15% of the work force was unemployed. A society that cannot put those 2 things together is fundamentally flawed. The same holds true of homeless and vacant houses.


In between lies the massive, centralized authority propping it all up.

[BurtReynolds]

the day I let this worthless fuckstick bottom page me is the day I eat my giant stretched out hat.

Never heard of Rawls. I'll have to check him out.


This generally sums up my feelings against collectivism and why its responsible for most of history's great atrocities:

https://www.theobjectivestandard.com/is ... lectivism/

Individualism is the idea that the individual’s life belongs to him and that he has an inalienable right to live it as he sees fit, to act on his own judgment, to keep and use the product of his effort, and to pursue the values of his choosing. It’s the idea that the individual is sovereign, an end in himself, and the fundamental unit of moral concern. This is the ideal that the American Founders set forth and sought to establish when they drafted the Declaration and the Constitution and created a country in which the individual’s rights to life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness were to be recognized and protected.

Collectivism is the idea that the individual’s life belongs not to him but to the group or society of which he is merely a part, that he has no rights, and that he must sacrifice his values and goals for the group’s “greater good.” According to collectivism, the group or society is the basic unit of moral concern, and the individual is of value only insofar as he serves the group. As one advocate of this idea puts it: “Man has no rights except those which society permits him to enjoy. From the day of his birth until the day of his death society allows him to enjoy certain so-called rights and deprives him of others; not . . . because society desires especially to favor or oppress the individual, but because its own preservation, welfare, and happiness are the prime considerations.”

A beautiful statement of the metaphysical fact of individualism was provided by former slave Frederick Douglass in a letter he wrote to his ex-“master” Thomas Auld after escaping bondage in Maryland and fleeing to New York. “I have often thought I should like to explain to you the grounds upon which I have justified myself in running away from you,” wrote Douglass. “I am almost ashamed to do so now, for by this time you may have discovered them yourself. I will, however, glance at them.” You see, said Douglass,

"I am myself; you are yourself; we are two distinct persons, equal persons. What you are, I am. You are a man, and so am I. God created both, and made us separate beings. I am not by nature bound to you, or you to me. Nature does not make your existence depend upon me, or mine to depend upon yours. I cannot walk upon your legs, or you upon mine. I cannot breathe for you, or you for me; I must breathe for myself, and you for yourself. We are distinct persons, and are each equally provided with faculties necessary to our individual existence. In leaving you, I took nothing but what belonged to me, and in no way lessened your means for obtaining an honest living. Your faculties remained yours, and mine became useful to their rightful owner."

Although one could quibble with the notion that “God” creates people, Douglass’s basic metaphysical point is clearly sound. Human beings are by nature distinct, separate beings, each with his own body and his own faculties necessary to his own existence. Human beings are not in any way metaphysically attached or dependent on one another; each must use his own mind and direct his own body; no one else can do either for him. People are individuals. “I am myself; you are yourself; we are two distinct persons.”

The individual is metaphysically real; he exists in and of himself; he is the basic unit of human life. Groups or collectives of people—whether families, partnerships, communities, or societies—are not metaphysically real; they do not exist in and of themselves; they are not fundamental units of human life. Rather, they are some number of individuals. This is perceptually self-evident. We can see that it is true.

Who says otherwise? Collectivists do. John Dewey, a father of pragmatism and modern “liberalism,” explains the collectivist notion as follows:

"Society in its unified and structural character is the fact of the case; the non-social individual is an abstraction arrived at by imagining what man would be if all his human qualities were taken away. Society, as a real whole, is the normal order, and the mass as an aggregate of isolated units is the fiction."

According to collectivism, the group or society is metaphysically real—and the individual is a mere abstraction, a fiction.

This, of course, is ridiculous, but there you have it. On the metaphysics of collectivism, you and I (and Mr. Douglass) are fictional, and we become real only insofar as we somehow interrelate with society. As to exactly how we must interrelate with the collective in order to become part of the “real whole,” we’ll hear about that shortly.

[Noangel]

indeed. why should a community's resources benefit that community?

[4/5]

Collectivism in all its forms is the single greatest evil in the universe.

Spoiler: show

the same arguments against socialism and communism, as to why failure is inherent, holds true for American capitalism.


They all require massive gov't intervention-socialism/communism/capitalism- to continue their existence.....

Hmm. Massive government intervention kinda sounds like the opposite of capitalism.

bailouts?
great depression?
military industrial complex?

all evidence that US capitalism has not only failed, twice, massively, but that a massive gov't is required to sustain the current model.

Fractional Reserve banking is a thievery on par with nothing in human history.
You give a bank a dollar. They have to match that dollar, but they can loan out 90% of the deposit. And the recipient of the loan will probably deposit that into the bank, and the process repeats, again and again.
Essentially that 1$ deposit turns into ~3$. The number of dollars in circulation has increased, but the value of the currency has not, thus inflation. Its inherent in the monetary system. It might not seem important but essentially labor is being paid less and less, for every loan a bank makes, every deposit, every purchase. Its been said that for every dollar in circulation someone, somewhere owes a dollar to a bank or like institution.

So Americans work harder, and banks get more and more,.....and foreclose and take property and on and on.

A Yale professor gave a talk, he said that 20% of American potential was idle, while 10-15% of the work force was unemployed. A society that cannot put those 2 things together is fundamentally flawed. The same holds true of homeless and vacant houses.


In between lies the massive, centralized authority propping it all up.

Again, I'm sure you don't actually realize this, but the massive role of the centralized authorities you keep mentioning is in fact NOT capitalism. Pure capitalism would not feature bailouts or massive government.

[Noangel]

Collectivism in all its forms is the single greatest evil in the universe.

Spoiler: show

the same arguments against socialism and communism, as to why failure is inherent, holds true for American capitalism.


They all require massive gov't intervention-socialism/communism/capitalism- to continue their existence.....

Hmm. Massive government intervention kinda sounds like the opposite of capitalism.

bailouts?
great depression?
military industrial complex?

all evidence that US capitalism has not only failed, twice, massively, but that a massive gov't is required to sustain the current model.

Fractional Reserve banking is a thievery on par with nothing in human history.
You give a bank a dollar. They have to match that dollar, but they can loan out 90% of the deposit. And the recipient of the loan will probably deposit that into the bank, and the process repeats, again and again.
Essentially that 1$ deposit turns into ~3$. The number of dollars in circulation has increased, but the value of the currency has not, thus inflation. Its inherent in the monetary system. It might not seem important but essentially labor is being paid less and less, for every loan a bank makes, every deposit, every purchase. Its been said that for every dollar in circulation someone, somewhere owes a dollar to a bank or like institution.

So Americans work harder, and banks get more and more,.....and foreclose and take property and on and on.

A Yale professor gave a talk, he said that 20% of American potential was idle, while 10-15% of the work force was unemployed. A society that cannot put those 2 things together is fundamentally flawed. The same holds true of homeless and vacant houses.


In between lies the massive, centralized authority propping it all up.

Again, I'm sure you don't actually realize this, but the massive role of the centralized authorities you keep mentioning is in fact NOT capitalism. Pure capitalism would not feature bailouts or massive government.

The same argument can be made of anarcho-syndicalism/ socialism/collectivism.

[Noangel]

Collectivism in all its forms is the single greatest evil in the universe.

Spoiler: show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN2FrUUq-zI


why collectivism (however defined) isn't so evil...

[BurtReynolds]

In my mind, I basically see society as forming up along three groups, not the two we have been used to: Collectivist right, collectivist left, and liberal individualists (sadly, a distant third). In that respect its quite similar to the conditions before World War 2, when Europe was divided along those same three lines. And for most of of the war that followed, the western liberal democracies were just fighting to survive. And I shouldn't have to tell you how the competing brands of collectivism worked out for the people under them. And, no, I don't think I'm being hyperbolic in making the comparison here.

[Orpheus]

Aren't the Scandinavian countries largely examples of collectivism working? They all have the highest quality of life on Earth.

[Mickey]

Aren't the Scandinavian countries largely examples of collectivism working? They all have the highest quality of life on Earth.

I mean a lot of that is predicated on global capitalism in that the historically and presently extracted wealth they use to construct and support that system is not collectively owned. But yes, there's very little reason to think that minor social democrat "collectivist" reforms couldn't massively improve US standard of living.

[BurtReynolds]

Aren't the Scandinavian countries largely examples of collectivism working? They all have the highest quality of life on Earth.

The government systems of homogenous, small population countries with enormous resources and allies that provide their military support aren't a good model for the rest of the world, especially the U.S.

Though I wouldn't say they are that collectivist. In mindset, they are largely capitalist and somewhat independent minded, compared to most places, and to the extent they aren't will be detrimental long term.

[Mickey]

Aren't the Scandinavian countries largely examples of collectivism working? They all have the highest quality of life on Earth.

The government systems of homogenous, small population countries with enormous resources and allies that provide their military support aren't a good model for the rest of the world, especially the U.S.

Though I wouldn't say they are that collectivist. In mindset, they are largely capitalist and somewhat independent minded, compared to most places, and to the extent they aren't will be detrimental long term.

Not really any evidence for this belief, but okay.

[Dscans]

Aren't the Scandinavian countries largely examples of collectivism working? They all have the highest quality of life on Earth.

I read somewhere that in these countries, the state acts as a tax collector but leaves decisions as to how to spend that money to the local communities.

I think socialism just isn't scalable to the large US economy.

[Bi_3]

Aren't the Scandinavian countries largely examples of collectivism working? They all have the highest quality of life on Earth.

Not really, they are free market economies like us, but they are small enough and have had (historically) a monoculture that allowed an expanded sense of common good to develop. Having Higher taxes and more social services is not the same as collectivism.

[BurtReynolds]

This guy keeps popping up a lot in other books I like (usually respectfully pointing out what he is wrong about), so I thought I'd give his Ethics a spin

[Dscans]

Collectivism in all its forms is the single greatest evil in the universe.

Spoiler: show

the same arguments against socialism and communism, as to why failure is inherent, holds true for American capitalism.


They all require massive gov't intervention-socialism/communism/capitalism- to continue their existence.....

Hmm. Massive government intervention kinda sounds like the opposite of capitalism.

bailouts?
great depression?
military industrial complex?

all evidence that US capitalism has not only failed, twice, massively, but that a massive gov't is required to sustain the current model.

Fractional Reserve banking is a thievery on par with nothing in human history.
You give a bank a dollar. They have to match that dollar, but they can loan out 90% of the deposit. And the recipient of the loan will probably deposit that into the bank, and the process repeats, again and again.
Essentially that 1$ deposit turns into ~3$. The number of dollars in circulation has increased, but the value of the currency has not, thus inflation. Its inherent in the monetary system. It might not seem important but essentially labor is being paid less and less, for every loan a bank makes, every deposit, every purchase. Its been said that for every dollar in circulation someone, somewhere owes a dollar to a bank or like institution.

So Americans work harder, and banks get more and more,.....and foreclose and take property and on and on.

A Yale professor gave a talk, he said that 20% of American potential was idle, while 10-15% of the work force was unemployed. A society that cannot put those 2 things together is fundamentally flawed. The same holds true of homeless and vacant houses.


In between lies the massive, centralized authority propping it all up.

I'm having trouble following. Can you provide some clarity?

Fractional reserve banking is how wealth is created in this country (however flawed it might be). Yet you make it sound like some form of oppression.

When a bank forecloses on a home, that means they've taken a loss. It's a lose-lose scenario for the bank and the homeowner.

[4/5]

Aren't the Scandinavian countries largely examples of collectivism working? They all have the highest quality of life on Earth.

The government systems of homogenous, small population countries with enormous resources and allies that provide their military support aren't a good model for the rest of the world, especially the U.S.

Though I wouldn't say they are that collectivist. In mindset, they are largely capitalist and somewhat independent minded, compared to most places, and to the extent they aren't will be detrimental long term.

Not really any evidence for this belief, but okay.

The mindset thing might be tough to measure, but those countries are consistently ranked as having freer markets than the U.S. Their economic system is capitalistic in nature. They choose to have high tax rates and to have a government that provides a wide range of social services to its citizenry, including a generous social safety net among other things, but this is most certainly not socialism or collectivism. It is capitalism with a welfare state. Whether that's good or bad or could or should be done in the U.S. are all good and open questions, but whether their economy is more market or command based isn't really in question.

[BurtReynolds]

Are meaning and purpose the same thing? It seems that, while I don't think my life has any purpose, it does have meaning.

[Dev]

Are meaning and purpose the same thing? It seems that, while I don't think my life has any purpose, it does have meaning.

there is a difference beteeen meaning and meaningful.

[tree_]

If you were, indeed, the author of your thoughts, 'the thinker', why can't you ever know what thought you're going to come up with next?

Spoiler: show

"You" don't exist. You're merely a space of observation with the illusion of "self".

[BurtReynolds]

Brains are weird.