Star Wars: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

[LoathedVermin72]

Wow is Laura Dern’s character really named Holdo? Lolllll

LV, do you think a movie can have objectively good/bad elements?

No, not really. I think you can argue whether an element is bad or good using semi-objective evidence, but ultimately, “bad” or “good” is a judgment that is inherently subjective.

What if, instead of using good and bad, we judge whether it was successful at achieving its goal, assuming we can know what the goal is?

Semantics, really.

[tree_]

Wow is Laura Dern’s character really named Holdo? Lolllll

LV, do you think a movie can have objectively good/bad elements?

No, not really. I think you can argue whether an element is bad or good using semi-objective evidence, but ultimately, “bad” or “good” is a judgment that is inherently subjective.

What if, instead of using good and bad, we judge whether it was successful at achieving its goal, assuming we can know what the goal is?

Semantics, really.

Yeah... good and bad are confusingly vague...

But can't we place objective values on the quality in which a story was written or executed? It can't be all subjective, can it?

[epilogue]

Wow is Laura Dern’s character really named Holdo? Lolllll

LV, do you think a movie can have objectively good/bad elements?

No, not really. I think you can argue whether an element is bad or good using semi-objective evidence, but ultimately, “bad” or “good” is a judgment that is inherently subjective.

What if, instead of using good and bad, we judge whether it was successful at achieving its goal, assuming we can know what the goal is?

Semantics, really.

Yeah... good and bad are confusingly vague...

But can't we place objective values on the quality in which a story was written or executed? It can't be all subjective, can it?

No, because everyone accesses, processes, and responds to artistic quality in different ways. Art isn't a machine. It's not as simple as "it turns on and does what it's designed to do or it doesn't."

[epilogue]

It's inherently subjective. You can talk about what you like and what you don't, what works for you and why, how you respond, but there is no "right" or absolute answer to the question of artistic quality.

[tree_]

I get your perspective... it seems to me, though, that anything can be subjective... A blue chair can appear grey to you and remind you of your childhood in a profound way... but there are still objective qualities to it... it was made well, is sturdy, etc...

[epilogue]

I get your perspective... it seems to me, though, that anything can be subjective... A blue chair can appear grey to you and remind you of your childhood in a profound way... but there are still objective qualities to it... it was made well, is sturdy, etc...

Craftsmanship is different than art, though. There are things that can be objectively verified and discussed. Movies ain't one of those things.

[LoathedVermin72]

Wow is Laura Dern’s character really named Holdo? Lolllll

LV, do you think a movie can have objectively good/bad elements?

No, not really. I think you can argue whether an element is bad or good using semi-objective evidence, but ultimately, “bad” or “good” is a judgment that is inherently subjective.

What if, instead of using good and bad, we judge whether it was successful at achieving its goal, assuming we can know what the goal is?

Semantics, really.

Yeah... good and bad are confusingly vague...

But can't we place objective values on the quality in which a story was written or executed? It can't be all subjective, can it?

It can!

[epilogue]

Or to put it another way, tree... If you sit a chair and it immediately falls apart, we can say that chair is objectively poorly constructed. But if the chair is sitting in the middle of the room we can not say that it is objectively beautiful.

[tree_]

OK, take this for example. If we're going to say that consistency is something that matters in a script, we can say it is not done well, because through most of the movie, everyone refers to them as The Resistance, then, as though a flip is switched, Holdo and Snoke start calling them The Rebels... inconsistent, and unexplained. If you place value on inconsistency, you can say it is achieved and done well. It all depends on your values, I guess.

[dimejinky99]

All art is quite pointless - Oscar Wilde.

He was referencing this exact dilemma.

It can be a miracle and a treasure for you and appalling and offensive to me.

It cannot be judged or placed on a scale to determine its artistic worth

[dimejinky99]

All art is quite pointless - Oscar Wilde.

He was referencing this exact dilemma.

It can be a miracle and a treasure for you and appalling and offensive to me.

It cannot be judged or placed on a scale to determine its artistic worth

^there will never ever be a consensus

[tree_]

All art is quite pointless - Oscar Wilde.

He was referencing this exact dilemma.

It can be a miracle and a treasure for you and appalling and offensive to me.

It cannot be judged or placed on a scale to determine its artistic worth

But there are reasons it's a miracle for me and offensive to you. Those reasons can be measured.

[epilogue]

All art is quite pointless - Oscar Wilde.

He was referencing this exact dilemma.

It can be a miracle and a treasure for you and appalling and offensive to me.

It cannot be judged or placed on a scale to determine its artistic worth

But there are reasons it's a miracle for me and offensive to you. Those reasons can be measured.

Individually, yes, they can be measured. But they can not be quantified universally.

[B]

I don't hate The Last Jedi, but I hate the fuck out of this thread.

[epilogue]

There really is no clearer example than this thread, tree. You can (and have) taken issue with a lot of the aspects of The Last Jedi and directly addressed instances where you think the writing is "bad" or "poor" or "unsuccessful."

Others have replied with explanations why we disagree and think those same exact aspects of the film are "good" or "well-constructed" or "successful."

It's all subjective.

[Anders]

I don't hate The Last Jedi, but I hate the fuck out of this thread.

At least it’s not directed by Rian Johnson.

[epilogue]

I don't hate The Last Jedi, but I hate the fuck out of this thread.

At least it’s not directed by Rian Johnson.

[stip]

Has anybody had a good counterargument to the stupidity of the whole Holdo/Poe conflict? She says "Hope is like the sun. If you only believe in it when you can see it, you'll never make it through the night"... so she's basically saying, "Poe, you need to listen to me and follow orders even if it looks like I'm completely incompetent and letting everyone die." What kind of lesson is this? Blindly follow authority?

Poe should've taken over as Admiral and started kicking ass at this point. More wasted potential for good storytelling.

Isn't the idea that you need to trust your commanding officers one of the foundational principles of any hierarchical structure (like a military)

This is a group of rebels fighting the likes of such empirical rule. They follow their hearts and do what they believe is right. This lesson is something The New Order would teach.

The Rebellion was never a bunch of anarchists. I've talked about this at length before, but Poe is a deconstruction of the 'seat of your pants follow your impulses the action hero does what he wants and it always works out fine archtype'. Poe does that and it doesn't work out (repeatedly), which is why Holdo doesn't trust him. His arc is learning to be less impulsive and more thoughtful, and to learn when to fight and when to run.

[dimejinky99]

Speaking of.
A website called the Mary Sue (you can probably see where this is going already) have gone after Rian Johnson publicly for him deleting 20,000 tweets.

And they did it with the most salacious ugly minded headline possible.

The alt right clickbait bullshit is actively going after creatives now after the James Gunn thing.

Immense arseholes.

We want to be be able to be racist and misogynistic and homophobic but if someone we don’t like has a different view than us, we’ll go after them for calling us manbabies.

Repulsive bullshit.

[stip]

In TFA, Snoke learns of the existence of Rey from Kylo and orders Kylo to take her to him. Why? It was implied there would be some sort of meaningful confrontation or temptation. This set-up was shallowly answered in TLJ. "Hi. Tell me where Luke is then I'm going to kill you" is all we get. Then he dies. It could've gone in very interesting, creative directions but instead it just stops. Subversion of expectations does not equal quality. Nobody expected it because it's lame.

I think it's clear pretty early that Rey wasn't going to be turned, which is why Snoke moves on. Those scenes could have been rewritten to focus more on the attempt to turn Rey, but no one would believe it. It's far more compelling (I think) to switch it up and make the confrontation about Kylo. It mirrors the throne room in Jedi, with a focus on vader more than Luke.