harmless wrote:One thing which is funny about the comments regarding these songs, as opposed to the comments regarding later stuff, is that if these songs seem incomplete they are judged to be "not finished", whereas when newer stuff sounds incomplete, it just sucks.
Do you think the live tracks we've heard sound incomplete?
They've recorded the entire album haven't they? Though we're two months out so who the fuck knows, but I don't think they're still working out the tracks.
It was the first time them live, so I'm sure they'll get more polished and what have you but I don't think it'll be the same difference as demo>finished track.
I wouldn't be surprised to discover that the tracks on Vitalogy that were worked on and rec'd while on tour had less time spent on the actual writing/arranging than the tracks on BS. I love that they were roadtested first and the end product is really fresh and full of life. I really need to read that PJ20 book to see if any of this is covered.
harmless wrote:One thing which is funny about the comments regarding these songs, as opposed to the comments regarding later stuff, is that if these songs seem incomplete they are judged to be "not finished", whereas when newer stuff sounds incomplete, it just sucks.
Do you think the live tracks we've heard sound incomplete?
They've recorded the entire album haven't they? Though we're two months out so who the fuck knows, but I don't think they're still working out the tracks.
It was the first time them live, so I'm sure they'll get more polished and what have you but I don't think it'll be the same difference as demo>finished track.
harmless wrote:One thing which is funny about the comments regarding these songs, as opposed to the comments regarding later stuff, is that if these songs seem incomplete they are judged to be "not finished", whereas when newer stuff sounds incomplete, it just sucks.
Do you think the live tracks we've heard sound incomplete?
They've recorded the entire album haven't they? Though we're two months out so who the fuck knows, but I don't think they're still working out the tracks.
It was the first time them live, so I'm sure they'll get more polished and what have you but I don't think it'll be the same difference as demo>finished track.
I'm not saying LB and FD sound unfinished, necessarily. I'm arguing the opposite: what makes people think CC and LIR are 'incomplete', apart from the fact they're not mastered? They sound like songs with a loose structure, same as UK or a bunch of stuff from Backspacer which, we all have complained in the past, sounds 'unfinished'. But that stuff just sucks because it's unfinished, whereas this stuff is definitely unfinished so if PJ had finished recording it, the songs would be awesome. That seems to be the theory floating around.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
I'm just wondering why one pair of songs 'sucks' while the other pair is judged obviously 'unfinished' but otherwise awesome.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
Yes, they did. A lot of people (including me) felt that many of the songs could've been great with more work. Whereas these ones are just great (despite needing more work). I'm wondering why.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
Thejambi wrote:I don't know what's going on anymore.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
Oh well, I'm in the group that considers CC and LiR finished enough for me. I guess the difference is that even potentially incomplete and definitely not mastered these songs are still better than those backspacer songs. Could you polish them up a bit? Sure but they're not loosing anything by leaving them as is imo.
With the backspacer songs I guess its the fact that we have quotes from the band saying they worked on them real quick, didn't let them turn into homework ect that makes you think what if they did? Would it have been better?
My opinion is moot though, cause I don't think spending more time on those specific songs, in the direction they were taking the album, would have made them better to me.
Basically CC and LiR are just better songs. Hell I've got random improvs from the band I prefer listening to, and they were I assume made up on the spot.
Good answers to what was probably a badly expressed non-question.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
OmegaprimeVKM wrote:So was the point of leaking this two for the leaker to prove that the band took the wrong path at S/T and as a result is now making far from imaginative drudgery?
I wouldn't call CC or LIR desperately imaginative. They're good but they're typical PJ (in a good way).
Lir sounds especially familiar. I also don't think it is that good. It could have fit on S/t in a way cc would not have. I wonder if it was replaced by gone
Possibly. I wondered whether CC had been replaced by Inside Job, considering its slightly similar melody and vocal style in the verses.
I hadn't picked up the CC/Inside Job similarity. I hear it more in Army Reserve, especially before the chorus in the vocal style.
Maybe if CC were "finished" it would have a chorus like Army Reserve. [trolling ]
harmless wrote:I'm not saying LB and FD sound unfinished, necessarily. I'm arguing the opposite: what makes people think CC and LIR are 'incomplete', apart from the fact they're not mastered? They sound like songs with a loose structure, same as UK or a bunch of stuff from Backspacer which, we all have complained in the past, sounds 'unfinished'. But that stuff just sucks because it's unfinished, whereas this stuff is definitely unfinished so if PJ had finished recording it, the songs would be awesome. That seems to be the theory floating around.
Regardless of how finished they are in the bands' mind, I think the existing recordings we have of "Cold Confession" and "Let it Ride" are superior to the formally "complete" version of "Unthought Known." They're just better tunes--and really, now that I've heard them, they're finished in my mind, I don't really care how much more tinkering the band may have done to them had they chosen to put them on the record.
I don't think it's a bias against new material talking, either--remember both of these songs are outtakes from an album that's not much more beloved than Backspacer.
harmless wrote:I'm not saying LB and FD sound unfinished, necessarily. I'm arguing the opposite: what makes people think CC and LIR are 'incomplete', apart from the fact they're not mastered? They sound like songs with a loose structure, same as UK or a bunch of stuff from Backspacer which, we all have complained in the past, sounds 'unfinished'. But that stuff just sucks because it's unfinished, whereas this stuff is definitely unfinished so if PJ had finished recording it, the songs would be awesome. That seems to be the theory floating around.
Regardless of how finished they are in the bands' mind, I think the existing recordings we have of "Cold Confession" and "Let it Ride" are superior to the formally "complete" version of "Unthought Known." They're just better tunes--and really, now that I've heard them, they're finished in my mind, I don't really care how much more tinkering the band may have done to them had they chosen to put them on the record.
I don't think it's a bias against new material talking, either--remember both of these songs are outtakes from an album that's not much more beloved than Backspacer.
Yep, that's true.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
harmless wrote:I'm not saying LB and FD sound unfinished, necessarily. I'm arguing the opposite: what makes people think CC and LIR are 'incomplete', apart from the fact they're not mastered? They sound like songs with a loose structure, same as UK or a bunch of stuff from Backspacer which, we all have complained in the past, sounds 'unfinished'. But that stuff just sucks because it's unfinished, whereas this stuff is definitely unfinished so if PJ had finished recording it, the songs would be awesome. That seems to be the theory floating around.
Regardless of how finished they are in the bands' mind, I think the existing recordings we have of "Cold Confession" and "Let it Ride" are superior to the formally "complete" version of "Unthought Known." They're just better tunes--and really, now that I've heard them, they're finished in my mind, I don't really care how much more tinkering the band may have done to them had they chosen to put them on the record.
I don't think it's a bias against new material talking, either--remember both of these songs are outtakes from an album that's not much more beloved than Backspacer.
I can buy that for CC, but have a hard time saying Let it Ride is superiour to Unthought - It's got gems and fuckin' rhinestones... which for me is better than any of the mumbling in either song.
Overall I don't see the Backspacer songwriting as unfinished at all. If you consider the amount of layering in such a concise package, I would say it's overly finished. In any case, it's an unpresumptuous 38-minutes that you have to take at face value. Unfortunately too many people want the ragged glory of No Code or else it's RIP PJ.
Layered production (I'm assuming that's what you mean by 'layering') has nothing to do with song structure or lyrics.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
OmegaprimeVKM wrote:So was the point of leaking this two for the leaker to prove that the band took the wrong path at S/T and as a result is now making far from imaginative drudgery?
I wouldn't call CC or LIR desperately imaginative. They're good but they're typical PJ (in a good way).
Lir sounds especially familiar. I also don't think it is that good. It could have fit on S/t in a way cc would not have. I wonder if it was replaced by gone
Possibly. I wondered whether CC had been replaced by Inside Job, considering its slightly similar melody and vocal style in the verses.
i doubt either were. They don't sound, at least this versions, finished enough to have been that close to making the album.
I don't expect them to. They're not going to get mastered, or even finally mixed, until the band knows they'll go on the album. In most cases it's a waste of time to finish tracks that won't be appearing. They'll record them all to a close enough quality and then decide which ones to master.
I don't know. They went further down the line with Binaural and Riot Act out-takes. I think it is or it was fairly common to make final mixes of songs that have a possibility to make the cut especially when b-sides were more common.
They sound to me like they gave up on them relatively early. I think those were ideas, as Mike likes to call them, that they tried to arrange into songs but they didn't like where they were going. It's just the impression it gives me.
harmless wrote:Layered production (I'm assuming that's what you mean by 'layering') has nothing to do with song structure or lyrics.
Sorry I meant layered song-writing with regards to all the elements that make up the final song.
Most Pearl Jam songs (whether from Ed or Stone, or whoever) probably start as a guitar part and maybe a slight vocal melody, but the songwriting doesn't end until you have all the guitar, bass and drum parts that build the song up. I think Backspacer is quite refined in that aspect. Something like Cold confession is much closer to the guitar part with a slight vocal.
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