HBO: Game of Thrones (Song of Ice and Fire)

[epilogue]

It’s a bit funny that the show gets this criticism (even if it’s less of the books), since I see Martin as a big leftie and feminist.

I don’t have any problem with that part of the show. I think the women and the minorities are even stronger represented than in the books. Besides, it’s a fantasy story. If anyone is treated badly, it’s all part of the world.

I’ll never understand the people who truly have a problem with the fact that women and people of color are treated poorly when the setting is based on a time period where those people were very much treated poorly by white men in positions of power. I don’t think the depictions on the show really ever celebrated those actions eithe. It’s uncomfortable to watch Sansa be raped because rape is a fucking horrible thing and it’s supposed to be uncomfortable to behold. Does it need to happen in the overall narrative? No, but it makes sense for Ramsay to do so.

And I'll never understand how people making that argument continue to misunderstand the argument.

[epilogue]

Wait but Sansa never... oh shit wrong thread

I love you.

[Mecca]

It’s a bit funny that the show gets this criticism (even if it’s less of the books), since I see Martin as a big leftie and feminist.

I don’t have any problem with that part of the show. I think the women and the minorities are even stronger represented than in the books. Besides, it’s a fantasy story. If anyone is treated badly, it’s all part of the world.

I’ll never understand the people who truly have a problem with the fact that women and people of color are treated poorly when the setting is based on a time period where those people were very much treated poorly by white men in positions of power. I don’t think the depictions on the show really ever celebrated those actions eithe. It’s uncomfortable to watch Sansa be raped because rape is a fucking horrible thing and it’s supposed to be uncomfortable to behold. Does it need to happen in the overall narrative? No, but it makes sense for Ramsay to do so.

And I'll never understand how people making that argument continue to misunderstand the argument.

What’s the argument then?

Btw I agree the Jaime raping was completely out of character and illogical

[epilogue]

It’s a bit funny that the show gets this criticism (even if it’s less of the books), since I see Martin as a big leftie and feminist.

I don’t have any problem with that part of the show. I think the women and the minorities are even stronger represented than in the books. Besides, it’s a fantasy story. If anyone is treated badly, it’s all part of the world.

I’ll never understand the people who truly have a problem with the fact that women and people of color are treated poorly when the setting is based on a time period where those people were very much treated poorly by white men in positions of power. I don’t think the depictions on the show really ever celebrated those actions eithe. It’s uncomfortable to watch Sansa be raped because rape is a fucking horrible thing and it’s supposed to be uncomfortable to behold. Does it need to happen in the overall narrative? No, but it makes sense for Ramsay to do so.

And I'll never understand how people making that argument continue to misunderstand the argument.

What’s the argument then?

Btw I agree the Jaime raping was completely out of character and illogical

Once again:

I don't think this necessarily needs to be re-litigated, but I don't think very many people argue that these issues shouldn't be represented, but that how they're represented matters.

[epilogue]

A character being a misogynist in a brutal world isn't the issue. The issue is in the misogyny of the creative's making the decisions. It's not about the world in story.

[Mecca]

A character being a misogynist in a brutal world isn't the issue. The issue is in the misogyny of the creative's making the decisions. It's not about the world in story.

I guess I need an example of something in the show that happened that could be shown differently and still gotten the same idea across. How is one shown to be a misogynist without depicting them as one?

[epilogue]

A character being a misogynist in a brutal world isn't the issue. The issue is in the misogyny of the creative's making the decisions. It's not about the world in story.

I guess I need an example of something in the show that happened that could be shown differently and still gotten the same idea across. How is one shown to be a misogynist without depicting them as one?

One prominent example is how the show runners decided to have three major characters raped who are not raped in the source material. There was no reason to make those changes were either completely gratuitous or completely illogical. They did not advance the story or reveal anything about the world or the characters involved. And in the case of Jamie, it actually damaged his character. Why were those decisions made? It can only be because the world view of the writers. And that's troubling.

[epilogue]

Another example is the lack of minority (in the show and behind the camera) and female representation behind the scenes.

[epilogue]

There are also the stories out there about women being written off the show or fired because they refused to do nude scenes or refused to do any more nude scenes. Again, just one more example.

[epilogue]

Or let's look at Littlefinger's famous "sexopsition" brothel scene in S2 (I think?). IT was unnecessary. The information we get from the dialogue in that scene is important and revelatory but it certainly does't require a lesbian love scene to express that information. That was not the Westeros and King's Landing mistreating or exploiting or objectifying women. It was HBO and Game of Thrones mistreating or exploiting or objectifying them. That scene required zero nudity, let alone a full on love scene. It was pure titillation and nothing more. The show/HBO decided the story was too boring and the only way viewers would stay tuned in was have women fuck each other loudly, in a way that would please the male audience and only the male audience, in the background.

[epilogue]

There is a wealth of information out there written and discussed by people that are smarter and more articulate than I. If you want to find it, it's easy to search for and read about.

RM probably isn't the proper arena to have this conversation. But if you're interested in looking at this stuff more, it's not hard to find more information.

[Mecca]

A character being a misogynist in a brutal world isn't the issue. The issue is in the misogyny of the creative's making the decisions. It's not about the world in story.

I guess I need an example of something in the show that happened that could be shown differently and still gotten the same idea across. How is one shown to be a misogynist without depicting them as one?

One prominent example is how the show runners decided to have three major characters raped who are not raped in the source material. There was no reason to make those changes were either completely gratuitous or completely illogical. They did not advance the story or reveal anything about the world or the characters involved. And in the case of Jamie, it actually damaged his character. Why were those decisions made? It can only be because the world view of the writers. And that's troubling.

The Jamie one was particularly troubling for the reasons you’ve mentioned. I really don’t know what motivation they had in making a consensual encounter in the source material to rape; Jamie is the subversion of a trope of the bad guy you’re supposed to hate, but aside from trying to kill Bran, he’s probably been one of the most virtuous characters and you’re forced to like him after hearing his side of killing the Mad King. Making him rape Cersei destroys everything we know to be true about him. I don’t know if it’s their worldview, but more or less that they know it’s provocative regardless of being an organic narrative, which is troubling because they are not their characters to misuse.

Sansa’s rape is an unfortunate side effect of her absorbing another character’s story, one that is raped in a pretty horrifying way because of Ramsay’s cruel torture games. It’s a logical action for Ramsay, though we already knew he was a monster, so perhaps true in that it doesn’t reveal anything new for him. I feel like it did advance the story a bit as they made it seem like Ramsay’s legitimization gave him the approval he sought and through the wedding as if he would treat Sansa like a decent person would. I feel like it paid off in Sansa’s arc of learning to really trust no one and led to her taking action against Littlefinger. The act also forced Theon to act to help Sansa escape, which led to the rallying of the lords to the cause of deposing the Boltons. Did a rape need to happen for all that to happen? No, probably not. He could’ve tortured her and left the rape implied so that it wasn’t gratuitous on the show, but knowing what we know about Ramsay, I’d argue it is a logical thing for him to do.

[epilogue]

I'm not saying it's an illogical action for Ramsay. It is absolutely something he would do. You're right.

[Mecca]

I'm not saying it's an illogical action for Ramsay. It is absolutely something he would do. You're right.

I mean, I guess that’s my requirement for horrible shit being depicted in any story as long as it’s not being celebrated.

[Mecca]

There are also the stories out there about women being written off the show or fired because they refused to do nude scenes or refused to do any more nude scenes. Again, just one more example.

Yeah, that shit is awful. I don’t know if it’s because I was forced to reconcile that shitty humans can make great art by being a fan of someone like Michael Jackson, Kanye West, etc, but I compartmentalize the artist and the art

[epilogue]

I'm not saying it's an illogical action for Ramsay. It is absolutely something he would do. You're right.

I mean, I guess that’s my requirement for horrible shit being depicted in any story as long as it’s not being celebrated.

Fine. But just one example out of many. And also Ramsay isn't the issue in that scene. It's troublesome for other reasons as has already been pointed out.

[epilogue]

There are also the stories out there about women being written off the show or fired because they refused to do nude scenes or refused to do any more nude scenes. Again, just one more example.

Yeah, that shit is awful. I don’t know if it’s because I was forced to reconcile that shitty humans can make great art by being a fan of someone like Michael Jackson, Kanye West, etc, but I compartmentalize the artist and the art

As is your right.

Still a conversation worth having, I think. And obviously I'm still watching the show. I still overall enjoy the story in spite of this stuff.

[Simple Torture]

I think Joey's final point is a good reminder that it's perfectly okay to enjoy a piece of art but to still be critical of it. There certainly are people out there who would argue that no one should watch GoT based on its depictions of sexual violence and other topics, but I think they're on the fringe. I think it's more challenging--but also more rewarding--to recognize the show's shortcomings and to use those as jumping-off points to learn about others' perspectives and approaches to criticism.

[epilogue]

I think Joey's final point is a good reminder that it's perfectly okay to enjoy a piece of art but to still be critical of it. There certainly are people out there who would argue that no one should watch GoT based on its depictions of sexual violence and other topics, but I think they're on the fringe. I think it's more challenging--but also more rewarding--to recognize the show's shortcomings and to use those as jumping-off points to learn about others' perspectives and approaches to criticism.

Yes. Well said.

Like I said before, there are smarter and more articulate people out there discussing this stuff.

Thanks, ST.

[Norah]

Wait but Sansa never... oh shit wrong thread

Chud chud, rhymes with Rudd

dunk the lunk, thick as a castle wall