MLB

[Fuck You Jobu]

Wins are a junk stat that should be ignored.

Scherzer should win the Cy Young anyway because when you ignore the wins he's still had the best season.

Right because the team that finishes the season with the best WAR wins the division.

Wins are a great way to evaluate a team, just not an individual pitcher.

True they are a great way to evaluate a team, but there is still value in a W from a (starting) pitcher.

Knowing how to win (understanding game situations, when to throw your best pitches - since you'll save some in a pennant race up 6 runs as opposed to when you in a close game, getting quick or easy outs over fatiguing K's, leaving your team in a position to win, ...) is important to being the best pitcher and can't just be discarded.

[@SkitchP]

Wins are a junk stat that should be ignored.

Scherzer should win the Cy Young anyway because when you ignore the wins he's still had the best season.

Right because the team that finishes the season with the best WAR wins the division.

No one has even mentioned WAR. We're talking about things like ERA, strikeouts, WHIP... you know, things the pitcher has some kind of control over.

Here's something for you: Max Scherzer's run support this year is 7.32 runs/9 innings. Of course he's winning a lot - it's like his opposing pitcher is a AA pitcher every single night. If Scherzer had a 5.50 ERA, he would likely still have a better record than Felix Hernandez.

and that's the problem with the debate. yes, his run support has been great. A huge part of the reason he's an astounding 19-1. But also he's given up 4 runs all of like 4 times this whole season. Even if you cut his run support in half, he's still probably leading the AL in wins.

[philpritchard]

Wins are a junk stat that should be ignored.

Scherzer should win the Cy Young anyway because when you ignore the wins he's still had the best season.

Right because the team that finishes the season with the best WAR wins the division.

No one has even mentioned WAR. We're talking about things like ERA, strikeouts, WHIP... you know, things the pitcher has some kind of control over.

Here's something for you: Max Scherzer's run support this year is 7.32 runs/9 innings. Of course he's winning a lot - it's like his opposing pitcher is a AA pitcher every single night. If Scherzer had a 5.50 ERA, he would likely still have a better record than Felix Hernandez.

and that's the problem with the debate. yes, his run support has been great. A huge part of the reason he's an astounding 19-1. But also he's given up 4 runs all of like 4 times this whole season. Even if you cut his run support in half, he's still probably leading the AL in wins.

But I've never said he shouldn't win. I actually said he should win. I just don't understand how people are so unable to comprehend how wins don't reflect the quality of a pitcher. There are plenty of reasons that Scherzer should win the Cy Young. Wins are not one of them.

[Fuck You Jobu]

Wins are a junk stat that should be ignored.

Scherzer should win the Cy Young anyway because when you ignore the wins he's still had the best season.

Right because the team that finishes the season with the best WAR wins the division.

No one has even mentioned WAR. We're talking about things like ERA, strikeouts, WHIP... you know, things the pitcher has some kind of control over.

Here's something for you: Max Scherzer's run support this year is 7.32 runs/9 innings. Of course he's winning a lot - it's like his opposing pitcher is a AA pitcher every single night. If Scherzer had a 5.50 ERA, he would likely still have a better record than Felix Hernandez.

and that's the problem with the debate. yes, his run support has been great. A huge part of the reason he's an astounding 19-1. But also he's given up 4 runs all of like 4 times this whole season. Even if you cut his run support in half, he's still probably leading the AL in wins.

But I've never said he shouldn't win. I actually said he should win. I just don't understand how people are so unable to comprehend how wins don't reflect the quality of a pitcher. There are plenty of reasons that Scherzer should win the Cy Young. Wins are not one of them.

I don't understand how winning the game has no influence on how good a pitcher is, since that is the point of the game.

[philpritchard]

Wins are a junk stat that should be ignored.

Scherzer should win the Cy Young anyway because when you ignore the wins he's still had the best season.

Right because the team that finishes the season with the best WAR wins the division.

No one has even mentioned WAR. We're talking about things like ERA, strikeouts, WHIP... you know, things the pitcher has some kind of control over.

Here's something for you: Max Scherzer's run support this year is 7.32 runs/9 innings. Of course he's winning a lot - it's like his opposing pitcher is a AA pitcher every single night. If Scherzer had a 5.50 ERA, he would likely still have a better record than Felix Hernandez.

and that's the problem with the debate. yes, his run support has been great. A huge part of the reason he's an astounding 19-1. But also he's given up 4 runs all of like 4 times this whole season. Even if you cut his run support in half, he's still probably leading the AL in wins.

But I've never said he shouldn't win. I actually said he should win. I just don't understand how people are so unable to comprehend how wins don't reflect the quality of a pitcher. There are plenty of reasons that Scherzer should win the Cy Young. Wins are not one of them.

I don't understand how winning the game has no influence on how good a pitcher is, since that is the point of the game.

A pitcher influences his team's ability to win the game. Of course he does. But whether or not a pitcher wins a game is not in the pitcher's control. A pitcher controls less than half a game. Clayton Kershaw is 13-7, and guess what? He's been better than Scherzer this year.

[Fuck You Jobu]

Wins are a junk stat that should be ignored.

Scherzer should win the Cy Young anyway because when you ignore the wins he's still had the best season.

Right because the team that finishes the season with the best WAR wins the division.

No one has even mentioned WAR. We're talking about things like ERA, strikeouts, WHIP... you know, things the pitcher has some kind of control over.

Here's something for you: Max Scherzer's run support this year is 7.32 runs/9 innings. Of course he's winning a lot - it's like his opposing pitcher is a AA pitcher every single night. If Scherzer had a 5.50 ERA, he would likely still have a better record than Felix Hernandez.

and that's the problem with the debate. yes, his run support has been great. A huge part of the reason he's an astounding 19-1. But also he's given up 4 runs all of like 4 times this whole season. Even if you cut his run support in half, he's still probably leading the AL in wins.

But I've never said he shouldn't win. I actually said he should win. I just don't understand how people are so unable to comprehend how wins don't reflect the quality of a pitcher. There are plenty of reasons that Scherzer should win the Cy Young. Wins are not one of them.

I don't understand how winning the game has no influence on how good a pitcher is, since that is the point of the game.

A pitcher influences his team's ability to win the game. [/b]Of course he does. But whether or not a pitcher wins a game is not in the pitcher's control. A pitcher controls less than half a game. Clayton Kershaw is 13-7, and guess what? He's been better than Scherzer this year.

Exactly. Which is why it should be considered.
To what extent is up for debate. To say that he has NO influence is silly. Of course he has some.

[Fuck You Jobu]

Just because he doesn't have absolute control over his team's win, doesn't mean he doesn't have any control

[Chris_H_2]

How come we don't assign wins to the hitter that has the game-winning hit, or a loss to the hitter that strikes out with the bases loaded to end the game with the team down by a run?

A pitcher's job is to pitch, just like a hitter's job is to get on base and score runs. I've never understood assigning an individual W on top of the team W.

[MadTIGERmaN]

How come we don't assign wins to the hitter that has the game-winning hit, or a loss to the hitter that strikes out with the bases loaded to end the game with the team down by a run?

A pitcher's job is to pitch, just like a hitter's job is to get on base and score runs. I've never understood assigning an individual W on top of the team W.

Well, ya gotta consider when the stat was created... pitchers not only finished their games... they had 4 man rotations, AND, on days they didnt start, they were in the bullpen. (Warren Spahn lead the Braves in wins and saves a few times)

also, speaking of Wins/run support...
in over 1/3rd of Felix Hernandez's starts in his career... the Mariners have failed to score more than 1 run while he was still in the game... hes got a few other crazy stats like that? most games won that finished 1-0 in the last 20 years I believe? and a few more like that... If he got ANY run support, wed be talking more about the King.

[Chris_H_2]

How come we don't assign wins to the hitter that has the game-winning hit, or a loss to the hitter that strikes out with the bases loaded to end the game with the team down by a run?

A pitcher's job is to pitch, just like a hitter's job is to get on base and score runs. I've never understood assigning an individual W on top of the team W.

Well, ya gotta consider when the stat was created... pitchers not only finished their games... they had 4 man rotations, AND, on days they didnt start, they were in the bullpen. (Warren Spahn lead the Braves in wins and saves a few times)

I'm not so sure that answers my question.

[philpritchard]

Just because he doesn't have absolute control over his team's win, doesn't mean he doesn't have any control

But how much a pitcher controls his team's ability to win is reflected in his ERA and other stats. Why bother looking at wins as "giving his team a chance to win" when that is so much more accurately expressed in other stats that don't rely extremely heavily on a pitcher's teammates?

[numbers]

None of us are saying it's an end all be all stat, we are just saying it isnt irrelevant, which is what many sabermetrics guys do.

[MadTIGERmaN]

How come we don't assign wins to the hitter that has the game-winning hit, or a loss to the hitter that strikes out with the bases loaded to end the game with the team down by a run?

A pitcher's job is to pitch, just like a hitter's job is to get on base and score runs. I've never understood assigning an individual W on top of the team W.

Well, ya gotta consider when the stat was created... pitchers not only finished their games... they had 4 man rotations, AND, on days they didnt start, they were in the bullpen. (Warren Spahn lead the Braves in wins and saves a few times)

I'm not so sure that answers my question.

well back in the 1900, with the pitcher staying in the game to the end, they had more of a say in the actual outcome. They werent leaving the game up to the bullpen to preserve the win. So at the time, it would have been a major stat. Not to mention in those days... there was no 24/7 sports news anything... it was all box scores in the paper... and, even if someone did come up with sabermetrics, it would have been virtually impossible to calculate them within the season.

basically it would come down too, how did Cy Young pitch? well he got the win so he must have shut down the other team... or, he got the loss, he must have gave up a few runs and been off... or, he got no decision? did he leave the game early? did the they go extra innings?

It is the one thing I agree on with the Sabermetrics crowds... Wins really doesnt translate to a pitchers dominance. (Guess whos had King Felix 3 out of the last 4 seasons on his fantasy team loL)

[@SkitchP]

Holy Miguel Cabrera.

[philpritchard]

None of us are saying it's an end all be all stat, we are just saying it isnt irrelevant, which is what many sabermetrics guys do.

And I'm saying it has very little relevance because there are other stats that say the same thing that don't depend on how other players (offense and bullpen) produce. Wins are probably the most flawed stat to analyze an individual performance.

Which pitcher would you rather have on your team (these are based on no one in particular):

Pitcher A: 20-2, 2.80 ERA, 180 Ks
Pitcher B: 14-10, 2.50 ERA, 200 Ks

[MadTIGERmaN]

these are legit stats from 2004
18-4, 2.98 ERA, 214.1 IP, 218/9 K to BB, 1.157 Whip, 5.45 WAR
16-14, 2.60 ERA, 245.2 IP, 290/44 K to BB, .900 Whip, 8.53 WAR
12-14, 2.70 ERA, 237 IP, 264/32 K to BB, .983 Whip, 7.17 WAR

The first one is Roger Clemens, who won the Cy Young with 140 votes 23 first place, 88% of the total votes.

the second one is Randy Johnson, 97 votes, 8 first, 61% of the votes and 2nd place

the third one, got totally screwed because of the Win/Loss record, as he got 1 vote, and 9th place for the 2004 Cy Young, thats Ben Sheets.

Roy Oswalt, Jason Schmidt, Carlos Zambrano, Carl Pavano, Eric Gagne, and Brad Lidge all got more votes than Sheets.

[@SkitchP]

How come I knew reading one of those stats, one of them was going to be a Brewer.

[MadTIGERmaN]

How come I knew reading one of those stats, one of them was going to be a Brewer.

hahaha you know me oh so well...
but ya gotta admit, theres almost no difference between Johnson and Sheets stats, and both are better than Clemens... except the W/L. Its a good example of how much the Cy Young voting has changed because of the sabermetrics crowd. Greinke and Felix would have never won their Cy Young's if they had the 2004 voters

[numbers]

these are legit stats from 2004
18-4, 2.98 ERA, 214.1 IP, 218/9 K to BB, 1.157 Whip, 5.45 WAR
16-14, 2.60 ERA, 245.2 IP, 290/44 K to BB, .900 Whip, 8.53 WAR
12-14, 2.70 ERA, 237 IP, 264/32 K to BB, .983 Whip, 7.17 WAR

The first one is Roger Clemens, who won the Cy Young with 140 votes 23 first place, 88% of the total votes.

the second one is Randy Johnson, 97 votes, 8 first, 61% of the votes and 2nd place

the third one, got totally screwed because of the Win/Loss record, as he got 1 vote, and 9th place for the 2004 Cy Young, thats Ben Sheets.

Roy Oswalt, Jason Schmidt, Carlos Zambrano, Carl Pavano, Eric Gagne, and Brad Lidge all got more votes than Sheets.

I dont have a problem with that, Clemens was a strong CY Candidate, it's not like there was no one having a year comparable to Sheets. Sheets was on a bad team, and you pay for that with these awards.

[philpritchard]

Sheets was on a bad team, and you pay for that with these awards.

This somewhat makes sense with the MVP (though I completely disagree with that) but what the hell does the quality of a team have to do with an award that's given to "the outstanding pitcher in each of the major leagues"?