MLB

[MadTIGERmaN]

I said it before, Ill say it again (and guys like Nolan Ryan will back it up)
THROW MORE! stop shutting these kids down...

your arm/shoulder/elbow can blow out on the first pitch or the 1000000th... theres no science too it. but the only way to build arm strength is to use it!

You're completely oversimplifying the solution and assuming that today's 2-3 year MLB pitchers are the same as yesteryear's. The fact is, they couldn't be more different.

Today's pitchers, by the time that they reach the MLB, have thrown a ridiculous number of pitches over a ridiculous number of innings. Guys 50 years ago (or even when Nolan Ryan was a rookie) didn't pitch in extended Little League or traveling teams, didn't play for college coaches who had no problem abusing the hell out of their pitchers' arms ***, didn't have to pitch year round, didn't throw in Arizona Fall League, New England League, California League, or the Florida League, and didn't throw through A-AAA before hitting the majors. The fact is, on average, today's MLB rookie pitchers are on par with where pitchers were 50 years ago at retirement in terms of the number of pitches thrown. So I don't think the solution is necessarily to "throw more," because that erroneously assumes that pitchers need to build up the arm strength as opposed to having something structurally wrong based on the number of pitches already thrown through those points of their careers.

*** This brings up another point. College coaches don't have their pitchers' best interests in mind and don't worry about preparing them for the next level. In fact, they have an inherent conflict of interest. They worry about their teams' performance and, ultimately, their own job security. So they have no problem putting their 1 starters out to throw 150 pitchers on 3 days' rest. There are some college programs (cough, Stanford) that are notorious for this.

ummmm, thats ummmm...
http://www.baseballnation.com/2013/5/17 ... itch-count
yeah that says it better... every team freaked out about pitch counts, and injuries (including tommy john surgery) are up... theres no scientific correlation between pitch count and arm injuries, none. But with any other muscle in your body that you plan on using a lot, you work it out, a lot, to build strength.

that article also mentions Livan Hernandez, the guy whos known to warm up before a start, by tossing 150+ pitches in the bullpen, the day of his start...

[Chris_H_2]

ummmm, thats ummmm...
http://www.baseballnation.com/2013/5/17 ... itch-count
yeah that says it better... every team freaked out about pitch counts, and injuries (including tommy john surgery) are up... theres no scientific correlation between pitch count and arm injuries, none. But with any other muscle in your body that you plan on using a lot, you work it out, a lot, to build strength.

that article also mentions Livan Hernandez, the guy whos known to warm up before a start, by tossing 150+ pitches in the bullpen, the day of his start...

So you have no problem with Mark Appel throwing 150 innings on 3 days' rest for 20 consecutive starts?

[@SkitchP]

ummmm, thats ummmm...
http://www.baseballnation.com/2013/5/17 ... itch-count
yeah that says it better... every team freaked out about pitch counts, and injuries (including tommy john surgery) are up... theres no scientific correlation between pitch count and arm injuries, none. But with any other muscle in your body that you plan on using a lot, you work it out, a lot, to build strength.

that article also mentions Livan Hernandez, the guy whos known to warm up before a start, by tossing 150+ pitches in the bullpen, the day of his start...

So you have no problem with Mark Appel throwing 150 innings on 3 days' rest for 20 consecutive starts?

College games are so long.

[Chris_H_2]

Do you really think kids in the 50s and 60s were throwing far less than kids today?

I'm assuming by "kids" you mean somewhere in the area of 15 to 21. If so, and given that they had less opportunities to pitch in organized games, yes.

[@SkitchP]

Do you really think kids in the 50s and 60s were throwing far less than kids today?

I'm assuming by "kids" you mean somewhere in the area of 15 to 21. If so, and given that they had less opportunities to pitch in organized games, yes.

That's the word Im going to take issue with. Just because they werent on a travel team, doesn't mean they didnt spend every afternoon out playing and pitching.

[Chris_H_2]

Do you really think kids in the 50s and 60s were throwing far less than kids today?

I'm assuming by "kids" you mean somewhere in the area of 15 to 21. If so, and given that they had less opportunities to pitch in organized games, yes.

That's the word Im going to take issue with. Just because they werent on a travel team, doesn't mean they didnt spend every afternoon out playing and pitching.

Pitching in a competitive game throwing 100+ pitches is a lot different than playing catch or pitching in practice.

[MadTIGERmaN]

Do you really think kids in the 50s and 60s were throwing far less than kids today?

I'm assuming by "kids" you mean somewhere in the area of 15 to 21. If so, and given that they had less opportunities to pitch in organized games, yes.

you need to go and read Satchel Pages biography... the dude would literally pitch in pickup games in cities on the way to his next organized game without even telling the team. Sure, in his 30s he had a dead arm, but continued to pitch, into his 50's

MLB network was talking about the Harvey situation this afternoon, and John Hart was talking about how the Mets actually had a doctor do a study on arms to set up a innings program, and his advice was... theres no way of knowing, it could happen on the first pitch or the 100000000th pitch... so just let them pitch, and enjoy the outs while the arm holds up.

Some never break down no matter how hard they throw, see Randy Johnson
some break down multiple times even though they dont throw hard at all

[Chris_H_2]

Do you really think kids in the 50s and 60s were throwing far less than kids today?

I'm assuming by "kids" you mean somewhere in the area of 15 to 21. If so, and given that they had less opportunities to pitch in organized games, yes.

you need to go and read Satchel Pages biography... the dude would literally pitch in pickup games in cities on the way to his next organized game without even telling the team. Sure, in his 30s he had a dead arm, but continued to pitch, into his 50's

MLB network was talking about the Harvey situation this afternoon, and John Hart was talking about how the Mets actually had a doctor do a study on arms to set up a innings program, and his advice was... theres no way of knowing, it could happen on the first pitch or the 100000000th pitch... so just let them pitch, and enjoy the outs while the arm holds up.

Some never break down no matter how hard they throw, see Randy Johnson
some break down multiple times even though they dont throw hard at all

So what would "throwing more" have anything to do with the equation? It sounds like you're saying that, on the one hand, pitchers' arms could blow at anytime regardless of pitches or arm fatigue while, on the other hand, you advocate throwing more to build up arm strength which, in turn, would prevent injuries.

[lowlight79]

As a mets fan, this was just a huge blow. I mean, like someone just punched you right in the dick, no balls, straight dick. The only think I can point to is Wainright pitched with a very similar injury for like 7 years before he blew out his elbow.

We still have wheeler and montero coming up next year and it's not like the mets planned on contending next year. I say, get the surgery done, which could make him throw harder and the mets hope to contend in 2015.

[Fuck You Jobu]

He most certainly has some control over whether his team wins. But now we're just repeating the same arguments...

Ok, so here's my point: why bother using a massively flawed "individual" stat that relies heavily on contributions from teammates to evaluate a player when there are so many stats available to show what the individual player actually accomplished?

What individual stats are you referring to?

[philpritchard]

He most certainly has some control over whether his team wins. But now we're just repeating the same arguments...

Ok, so here's my point: why bother using a massively flawed "individual" stat that relies heavily on contributions from teammates to evaluate a player when there are so many stats available to show what the individual player actually accomplished?

What individual stats are you referring to?

The massively flawed "individual" stat is Wins.

The individual stats that show what the player actually accomplished without the help of his teammates are pretty much everything else, and they don't have to be based on sabermetrics at all: ERA, Ks, BBs, WHIP, HR/9, etc. ERA and WHIP both rely on defense to a certain extent. The other three are completely up to the pitcher. None of them depend in any way on offense or the bullpen.

[Fuck You Jobu]

He most certainly has some control over whether his team wins. But now we're just repeating the same arguments...

Ok, so here's my point: why bother using a massively flawed "individual" stat that relies heavily on contributions from teammates to evaluate a player when there are so many stats available to show what the individual player actually accomplished?

What individual stats are you referring to?

The massively flawed "individual" stat is Wins.

The individual stats that show what the player actually accomplished without the help of his teammates are pretty much everything else, and they don't have to be based on sabermetrics at all: ERA, Ks, BBs, WHIP, HR/9, etc. ERA and WHIP both rely on defense to a certain extent. The other three are completely up to the pitcher. None of them depend in any way on offense or the bullpen.

I don't understand how you make the argument against Wins since it's dependent on teammates, but it's ok for ERA, WHIP.

[philpritchard]

I don't understand how you make the argument against Wins since it's dependent on teammates, but it's ok for ERA, WHIP.

Because it's dependent to a very different extent. ERA depends, to some extent, on defense. Wins depend, to some extent, on defense and the bullpen's ability to hold a lead, and to a huge extent on offense.

[MadTIGERmaN]

Do you really think kids in the 50s and 60s were throwing far less than kids today?

I'm assuming by "kids" you mean somewhere in the area of 15 to 21. If so, and given that they had less opportunities to pitch in organized games, yes.

you need to go and read Satchel Pages biography... the dude would literally pitch in pickup games in cities on the way to his next organized game without even telling the team. Sure, in his 30s he had a dead arm, but continued to pitch, into his 50's

MLB network was talking about the Harvey situation this afternoon, and John Hart was talking about how the Mets actually had a doctor do a study on arms to set up a innings program, and his advice was... theres no way of knowing, it could happen on the first pitch or the 100000000th pitch... so just let them pitch, and enjoy the outs while the arm holds up.

Some never break down no matter how hard they throw, see Randy Johnson
some break down multiple times even though they dont throw hard at all

So what would "throwing more" have anything to do with the equation? It sounds like you're saying that, on the one hand, pitchers' arms could blow at anytime regardless of pitches or arm fatigue while, on the other hand, you advocate throwing more to build up arm strength which, in turn, would prevent injuries.

pitchers run/bike on the treadmill A LOT to keep their legs in shape / ready to hold up to a long season, the Brewers have had a rash of hamstring injuries this year, and no ones saying shut down the biking, theyre doing too much running? nope

but the min a arm gets hurt, everyone wants to shut things down, its getting over worked.
even though theres no basis for it. theres no evidence that says too many pitches will lead to a blown out elbow/shoulder.

you want to prevent injuries, you strengthen the body

the arm can blow out on pitch 1, or 10000, so why shut them down? it makes no sense
and even stupider... if youre going to shut someone down, and you know youre going to shut them down... BUT you also think you might be in contention...
why not have the kid start later so you can still have him in the rotation come Sept/Oct?

[numbers]

The difference between today and yesteryear is that teams have so much money wrapped up in these pitchers. In the old days people just threw, if they didn't have the arm strength to hold up, they washed out and no one cared. With the money tied up with these pitchers today teams are more paranoid about taking a bath on their investment.

[philpritchard]

The difference between today and yesteryear is that teams have so much money wrapped up in these pitchers. In the old days people just threw, if they didn't have the arm strength to hold up, they washed out and no one cared. With the money tied up with these pitchers today teams are more paranoid about taking a bath on their investment.

It's also a learning process for teams, I think. Pitch counts and innings limits are a relatively new thing, so, while their usage is definitely debatable, teams are still trying to figure out how to implement them and whether or not they work just as much as we are.

[@SkitchP]

Do you really think kids in the 50s and 60s were throwing far less than kids today?

I'm assuming by "kids" you mean somewhere in the area of 15 to 21. If so, and given that they had less opportunities to pitch in organized games, yes.

That's the word Im going to take issue with. Just because they werent on a travel team, doesn't mean they didnt spend every afternoon out playing and pitching.

Pitching in a competitive game throwing 100+ pitches is a lot different than playing catch or pitching in practice.

agreed. But unmonitored throwing, and pitching on a sandlot probably results in terrible technique and lack of restraint.

[numbers]

Do you really think kids in the 50s and 60s were throwing far less than kids today?

I'm assuming by "kids" you mean somewhere in the area of 15 to 21. If so, and given that they had less opportunities to pitch in organized games, yes.

That's the word Im going to take issue with. Just because they werent on a travel team, doesn't mean they didnt spend every afternoon out playing and pitching.

Pitching in a competitive game throwing 100+ pitches is a lot different than playing catch or pitching in practice.

Not when you're a kid.

[verb_to_trust]

Brandon Phillips, a .310 on base percentage does in fact, suck (114th in MLB).

[Norah]

It's true.