Not worthy of a thread News

[epilogue]

Hmm but he didn't and that's not how rhetoric works.

That’s true. Personal responsibility is a difficult concept for lefties.

Sorry, imagining that Obama said this quote (which he didn't) is difficult for me because of...personal responsibility?

Would you feel better if it was a quote by JFK?

what... what the fuck are you even doing, PJ? I'm totally lost here. But then I'm a lefty so....

[epilogue]

Ronald Reagan gutted banking regulations that had been in place for 50 years, and the resulting risk-taking engaged in by banks eventually produced a savings and loan crisis that the entire country suffered for.

Shhhh...

Don't break their hearts, McP. It's like telling Gotham that Batman is a pedophile.

[epilogue]

This thread is deeply troubling. Or hilarious, I guess, depending on your POV.

[Mickey]

I think what Josh is trying to suggest is that it is somehow my personal, other-team bias against Ronald Reagan that makes me balk at his invocation of "responsibility"--that if, somehow, Obama or JFK had said those words, I would be more likely to believe them. At the same time he's also suggesting that leftists are unable to believe in personal responsibility, despite ample evidence to the contrary above. Walking himself into a contradiction here is, of course, nothing new. What's unclear is whether he's doing this to deflect from my point or whether he simply doesn't understand it (really a coin toss here), so I'll state it more clearly:

The recent revelations of Reagan's racist comments should cast doubt on him not only as an authoritative speaker on public morality in general but should also and more specifically make us question what kind of connection there might be between a man espousing a credo of personal responsibility in opposition to a focus on structural determinants (like historical racism) and that same man himself saying avowedly racist things--that perhaps his steadfast belief in personal responsibility stems not from a clear-eyed assessment of American identity but is more intimately linked to the kind of blinkered and prejudiced worldview on display in that conversation with Nixon (link here for the uninitiated, though the idea that only these comments testify to Reagan's racial animus is a bit myopic too). That's why it's important that Reagan said these words, rather than Obama or JFK--because one of the main tools of rhetoric is the authority of the speaker and for a good section of the reading public Reagan's is (mercifully) eroding.

[Mickey]

Clearly not all "lefties" shirk personal responsibility, but memes like this don't help the image:



Also, clearly not all millennials are "lefties," but this theme does feel like it leans one way and not the other.

What exactly does this Twitter joke have to do with leftism, Reido?

Contained within the joke is a deflection of personal responsibility, which is also a common criticism the right has of liberals who look to politicians and society to solve their problems.

That's one read of it, though I think you're making some leaps here by attributing that to leftism. The other read, of course, would be that the Boomer bootstraps mentality was fostered by a specific economic and political golden age in America (itself underwritten by massive violence abroad), and that this focus on personal responsibility is a reflection of a different American era, one that is quite decidedly not coming back.

[verb_to_trust]

I've been to Reagan's home town. There were definitely no black people there.

[epilogue]

I've been to Reagan's home town. There were definitely no black people there.

This made me laugh

[washing machine]

Clearly not all "lefties" shirk personal responsibility, but memes like this don't help the image:



Also, clearly not all millennials are "lefties," but this theme does feel like it leans one way and not the other.

What exactly does this Twitter joke have to do with leftism, Reido?

Contained within the joke is a deflection of personal responsibility, which is also a common criticism the right has of liberals who look to politicians and society to solve their problems.

That's one read of it, though I think you're making some leaps here by attributing that to leftism. The other read, of course, would be that the Boomer bootstraps mentality was fostered by a specific economic and political golden age in America (itself underwritten by massive violence abroad), and that this focus on personal responsibility is a reflection of a different American era, one that is quite decidedly not coming back.

What's your take on the "Greatest Generation" (again, underwritten by massive violence abroad) within the context of this discussion? Also, why would a focus on personal responsibility solely be a reflection on any one era?

[Mickey]

Clearly not all "lefties" shirk personal responsibility, but memes like this don't help the image:



Also, clearly not all millennials are "lefties," but this theme does feel like it leans one way and not the other.

What exactly does this Twitter joke have to do with leftism, Reido?

Contained within the joke is a deflection of personal responsibility, which is also a common criticism the right has of liberals who look to politicians and society to solve their problems.

That's one read of it, though I think you're making some leaps here by attributing that to leftism. The other read, of course, would be that the Boomer bootstraps mentality was fostered by a specific economic and political golden age in America (itself underwritten by massive violence abroad), and that this focus on personal responsibility is a reflection of a different American era, one that is quite decidedly not coming back.

What's your take on the "Greatest Generation" (again, underwritten by massive violence abroad) within the context of this discussion? Also, why would a focus on personal responsibility solely be a reflection on any one era?

Because of the structures of international capitalism?

[washing machine]

Oh. Of course.

[Mickey]

I mean in a most cursory overview possible, post-WWII America experienced economic growth and prosperity both because the war eliminated competition from the metropole while also undoing the mandate system of colonialism (but not the basic structure of colonialism itself). America was able to corner the global market on most goods while offshoring the less desirable aspects to these formerly held and underdeveloped areas (where, for example, they could ensure the extraction of natural resources at a small fraction of the overall profit, enforced through violence and puppet regimes). This created the conditions where American workers often _could_ better their families simply through hard work (it helped if they were white, and it definitely helped that a cold war climate led the government to create substantial social programs as a bulwark against Communist radicalization). None of these underlying economic factors are still the case, those safety nets were decimated by Reagan and others, and for large swathes of the country it is no longer a reality to say that if you simply work hard enough you'll be able to overcome whatever challenges you've been presented with. This is why it's specifically disingenuous to harp on personal responsibility as if the same Boomer conditions still existed (or, as if the Boomers' success wasn't underwritten by the historical conjecture they were a part of).

[Mickey]

I wrote that while on the toilet btw so there are tons of things you could nuance but that's the general arc.

[washing machine]

So what are you saying, exactly? That personal responsibility and hard work are not important anymore? Forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth, but I'm not really following.

[verb_to_trust]

So what are you saying, exactly? That personal responsibility and hard work are not important anymore? Forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth, but I'm not really following.

I really love the NBA. I bet if I work hard enough I can make a team for the upcoming season. Maybe even all star if I really practice at it.

[washing machine]

So what are you saying, exactly? That personal responsibility and hard work are not important anymore? Forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth, but I'm not really following.

I really love the NBA. I bet if I work hard enough I can make a team for the upcoming season. Maybe even all star if I really practice at it.

Maybe aim a little lower. Something more within your grasp? Like, I dunno, weighing in on bonehead trades within the NBA? I bet if you worked hard enough at it you could pull yourself up by your chinstraps and write for Blog a Bull, get noticed, then one day go on to restore the Chicago Tribune to the pinnacle of sports journalism in the midwest.

[surfndestroy]

So what are you saying, exactly? That personal responsibility and hard work are not important anymore? Forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth, but I'm not really following.

I really love the NBA. I bet if I work hard enough I can make a team for the upcoming season. Maybe even all star if I really practice at it.

If the goal of personal responsibility is to be one of the 300 best in the world at an endeavour, I may concede you have a point. But if the point of personal responsibility is to work to continually be the best person you can be then if that lands you in the top 300 is immaterial. You could be a great weekend b-baller. Living a healthy lifestyle, forming friendship with fellow players, being part of a community. But fawk that, top 300 or I quit.

[verb_to_trust]

So what are you saying, exactly? That personal responsibility and hard work are not important anymore? Forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth, but I'm not really following.

I really love the NBA. I bet if I work hard enough I can make a team for the upcoming season. Maybe even all star if I really practice at it.

Maybe aim a little lower. Something more within your grasp? Like, I dunno, weighing in on bonehead trades within the NBA? I bet if you worked hard enough at it you could pull yourself up by your chinstraps and write for Blog a Bull, get noticed, then one day go on to restore the Chicago Tribune to the pinnacle of sports journalism in the midwest.

I've actually been banned from BlogaBull

[Rob]

I think he's saying that the personal responsibility "bootstraps" mentality comes from an era with a unique context, by Boomers & those who probably could (if white) go work hard and live decently. No one ever says personal responsibility & hard work are bad or useless, just that the world has changed. Data seems to show we work harder today and are more productive, but deeper in debt and economically stressed (even though many households have more than one wage earner now).

[washing machine]

So what are you saying, exactly? That personal responsibility and hard work are not important anymore? Forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth, but I'm not really following.

I really love the NBA. I bet if I work hard enough I can make a team for the upcoming season. Maybe even all star if I really practice at it.

If the goal of personal responsibility is to be one of the 300 best in the world at an endeavour, I may concede you have a point. But if the point of personal responsibility is to work to continually be the best person you can be then if that lands you in the top 300 is immaterial. You could be a great weekend b-baller. Living a healthy lifestyle, forming friendship with fellow players, being part of a community. But fawk that, top 300 or I quit.

[washing machine]

What do we make of personal responsibility outside of economics?

In a democratic society, is there ever an era in which the decisions you make about your diet, your values, your education, how you choose to feel about the world, and the extent of your involvement in your community aren't all your responsibility?