Once Upon a Time in... Hollywood

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

[epilogue]

Well hopefully no one feels attacked here...We're just debating the merits of a commercial film. I even hope tree didn't feel attacked when Burn and I were ribbing him for his silly "Luke Perry should've starred in this thing" take.

It just feels to me that -- with specific regard to the Bruce Lee scene -- both you and some of the film's public detractors are looking for some sort of minority messaging in a scene that really didn't hold any, nor required any.

Your other issues with the movie on which we disagree are just as subjective, but have lesser social consequence, so I'm not too worried about it.

I can't speak to others but your take about the Bruce Lee scene reads a lot more to me like you hearing what you want to hear and finding a fight based on something no one said as far as it relates to my take on the scene. Maybe it's totally valid in the face of other criticism out there. I'm not trying to dismiss you or invalidate you opinion. But in regards to my POV and my arguments that feels pretty reductive and like you're hearing what you want to hear rather what I'm saying. My issues have little or nothing to do with minority messaging. But I haven't looked up what others say about it. Maybe I'll read more and someone will change my mind there.

Still, totally respect your take. But I'm talking about narrative and character and structure.

[Orpheus]

Isn't the whole Bruce Lee scene not a memory, but something he imagines? That's why I didn't even think to have a problem with it, it was obviously supposed to be dreamlike and absurd. People are being really weird about this, IMO. Nothing about that scene struck me as being off.

[epilogue]

Isn't the whole Bruce Lee scene not a memory, but something he imagines? That's why I didn't even think to have a problem with it, it was obviously supposed to be dreamlike and absurd. People are being really weird about this, IMO. Nothing about that scene struck me as being off.

I like that take, but I already addressed why that doesn't hold water even though I really do like the idea.

But, if your last sentence is true, in the face of what you thought the scene was, isn't that in and of itself a problem? Like, if the thing is a fantasy and "nothing about the scene struck [you] as being off" isn't that a failure? If it's a fantasy it should feel different, perhaps not "off" but different. No?

[Orpheus]

It feels like some people are not getting that and think this is something Cliff actually lived through, though. Am I crazy? I like people to be on the same page in terms of basic plot if there are going to be debates like this, otherwise it's kind of pointless.

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

[epilogue]

It feels like some people are not getting that and think this is something Cliff actually lived through, though. Am I crazy? I like people to be on the same page in terms of basic plot if there are going to be debates like this, otherwise it's kind of pointless.

I WANT it to be a fantasy or exaggerated memory. But there's nothing else in the text that supports that idea. Therefore, I have to think it's not. I think QT's intention is that it really happened exactly that way and is an accurate memory.

[epilogue]

Isn't the whole Bruce Lee scene not a memory, but something he imagines? That's why I didn't even think to have a problem with it, it was obviously supposed to be dreamlike and absurd. People are being really weird about this, IMO. Nothing about that scene struck me as being off.

Well hopefully no one feels attacked here...We're just debating the merits of a commercial film. I even hope tree didn't feel attacked when Burn and I were ribbing him for his silly "Luke Perry should've starred in this thing" take.

It just feels to me that -- with specific regard to the Bruce Lee scene -- both you and some of the film's public detractors are looking for some sort of minority messaging in a scene that really didn't hold any, nor required any.

Your other issues with the movie on which we disagree are just as subjective, but have lesser social consequence, so I'm not too worried about it.

I can't speak to others but your take about the Bruce Lee scene reads a lot more to me like you hearing what you want to hear and finding a fight based on something no one said as far as it relates to my take on the scene. Maybe it's totally valid in the face of other criticism out there. I'm not trying to dismiss you or invalidate you opinion. But in regards to my POV and my arguments that feels pretty reductive and like you're hearing what you want to hear rather what I'm saying. My issues have little or nothing to do with minority messaging. But I haven't looked up what others say about it. Maybe I'll read more and someone will change my mind there.

Still, totally respect your take. But I'm talking about narrative and character and structure.

I also read this scene as a fantasy rather than a memory, but it seems like the jury's largely out on that one...

The basic gripe that's played out in the press has been lead by Lee's daughter, who claims the scene is disrespectful to her dad's memory and Asian Americans in general. There are some think pieces to the effect of "If you laughed at this scene, you're being low-key racist."

Interesting. I'll look into it. Thanks.

[Orpheus]

It feels like some people are not getting that and think this is something Cliff actually lived through, though. Am I crazy? I like people to be on the same page in terms of basic plot if there are going to be debates like this, otherwise it's kind of pointless.

I WANT it to be a fantasy or exaggerated memory. But there's nothing else in the text that supports that idea. Therefore, I have to think it's not. I think QT's intention is that it really happened exactly that way and is an accurate memory.

That's not true though. I don't have a script in front of me, but I remember Rick mentioning Green Hornet and Kurt's character working it. Cliff asks about it, but Rick shrugs him off saying it's not a good idea. Later on, when he's working on the roof, Cliff imagines what would happen if he did make it on the Green Hornet set, and how he'd probably make an ass of himself and piss everyone off (i.e. the Bruce Lee scene), so he thinks better of it.

Is this not what happens? It changes the entire meaning of the scene if people think it is an actual memory of Cliff's...and I don't think it's meant to be.

[epilogue]

It feels like some people are not getting that and think this is something Cliff actually lived through, though. Am I crazy? I like people to be on the same page in terms of basic plot if there are going to be debates like this, otherwise it's kind of pointless.

I WANT it to be a fantasy or exaggerated memory. But there's nothing else in the text that supports that idea. Therefore, I have to think it's not. I think QT's intention is that it really happened exactly that way and is an accurate memory.

That's not true though. I don't have a script in front of me, but I remember Rick mentioning Green Hornet and Kurt's character working it. Cliff asks about it, but Rick shrugs him off saying it's not a good idea. Later on, when he's working on the roof, Cliff imagines what would happen if he did make it on the Green Hornet set, and how he'd probably make an ass of himself and piss everyone off (i.e. the Bruce Lee scene), so he thinks better of it.

Is this not what happens? It changes the entire meaning of the scene if people think it is an actual memory of Cliff's...and I don't think it's meant to be.

But then why bring up Randy at all and his objections (potential) objections to bringing Cliff into the new Timothy Olyphant show?

[epilogue]

Also, the "wife killing" stuff is part of the rooftop memory stuff, too. Is that also not true at all? Is that scene on the boat a fantasy?

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

[Orpheus]

I took the boat scene as a memory.

IIRC, Rick is saying he can't get Cliff onto Green Hornet because Randy/his wife don't like him, and the Western show because there will be nothing for him to do. But I could be wrong, I've only seen it once and I don't have the script. But I remember it making perfect sense at the time to me.

[epilogue]

I took the boat scene as a memory.

IIRC, Rick is saying he can't get Cliff onto Green Hornet because Randy/his wife don't like him, and the Western show because there will be nothing for him to do. But I could be wrong, I've only seen it once and I don't have the script. But I remember it making perfect sense at the time to me.

Maybe I'm misremembering. I swore that Cliff asked Rick to get him on the new show. But Rick says (paraphrasing) "No point. Randy's doing it and you know he hates you." Cliff then goes back to fix Rick's TV. While on the roof, we see a ton of "flashbacks" or "memories" or "fantasies." An argument could be made that any of them is any of those things I suppose.

But the issue is that nothing else in the movie is treated that way. So if it's a fantasy, it's the only time in the text that that happens. Therefore, it stands to reason that it isn't. But if it is, it's utterly stupid on all the levels I've already discussed AND on the level of consistency and narrative vision. If you're right it only strengthens my point that QT has nothing to say and is only interested in WOULDN'TBECOOLIF rather telling a competent, coherent story.

[epilogue]

I think the boat scene was 100% real, but intentionally ambiguous as to whether or not he killed her.

fwiw, I agree

[tree_]

I like the whole "wouldn't it be cool if" and don't care about anything else because it's so damn fun and enjoyable.

[Orpheus]

I'll have to watch it again and see if I can get it straight.

But apart from that, I can't really say I agree with any of that Durds. But it seems we are thinking about it in two different ways. I am fine with something like a one-off fantasy sequence. I didn't really have any problem with narrative consistency or anything else in this film. It flowed really well and everything worked together, for me at least.

[tree_]

I wonder how much of this has to do with Harvey Weinstein. Tarantino basically said he's the one who gave him his career.

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.