Birds in Hell wrote:The music of Inside Job isn't bad.
And I mean, really, who cares about lyrics? They're just words.
sure, in the same way that music is just notes.
The notes actually matter, though.
Words in songs aren't written in a vacuum, some idealised expression of the writer's intent; they're often just the best word to fit that musical space with the right number of syllables, musically appropriate sounds, etc. They're just, you know, periphery. Sometimes pleasing periphery, sometimes less so, but not anywhere near as essential as the overall musical presentation.
WtOB? wrote:lyrics are also more important in some bands than others. in pearl jam, they're definitely an important factor.
Especially these days, because the band isn't a powerhouse anymore, so I wish the lyrics had got stronger to compensate. But it doesn't look like it.
with only a few exceptions backspacer actually had pretty strong lyrics, harmless. GSMF, Johnny Guitar, Amongst the Waves, Speed of Sound, Force of Nature. Those are all well written songs. Parts of just breathe and unthought known are very strong.
I'm overstating my case because Supersonic was on the same album. But I don't think FoN was that great lyrically. I agree with the rest, although I'd replace Just Breathe with The End here, and Amongst the Waves... I don't know, the verses are stronger than the chorus. This is one where I enjoy the whole package more than its parts. Unthought Known I really like until "Nothing left" sums up what's happening to the song at that point.
Last edited by harmless on Sat August 31, 2013 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
harmless wrote:Ed has always self-referenced. I'm OK with it. I'd rather that than him trying to write something with a new subject. Johnny Guitar is the furthest he got.
and i don't want him to go there again. jg was awful. much worse than inside job.
Ed is too boring to be self referencing. Make some interesting shit up, I say.
He's "too boring" and yet you want him to make "interesting shit" up? Good luck with that.
If Ed self-references, he can only be as boring as the original songs imo. Anything that self-references my favourite PJ songs is at least worth giving a go. I also think Johnny Guitar was the best song on Backspacer, but it was most definitely a witty pop song and I wouldn't want it to represent Pearl Jam.
I'm not interested in a rich 50 year old family man's self references. I think the better choice would be to dream up some interesting things to say rather than Future Days type subject matter. Hopefully we get more of that...
What makes you think he'll suddenly come up with new and interesting things to say after the last two albums? I really wish people would stop bringing up the rich 50 year old family man crap.
He's boring an uninteresting to me as a person, that's all. Its not his fault. Younger Eddie was at least interesting. Its okay to fake it through some lyrics at 50 if it means we don't have to listen to love songs to his model wife and kids.
I don't give a shit whether he's 50 and rich, or his wife is a model. Being married and having kids is fucking wonderful and I don't mind if he sings about it. The experience isn't less true because he's rich and his wife is a model. Maybe you'd feel differently if you were a model.
Or maybe if I was one rolled up in blood.
Is that it? He's abandoned all his principles by marrying someone who models underwear for a living?
I don't care that hes married to someone hot and much taller than him, I just think its boring subject matter for a Pearl Jam song.
this may sound patronizing, but I can deal with the inside job lyrics because mike doesn't normally write lyrics, it was personal to him, etc. It doesn't make them good, but it's kinda like hanging up your kids artwork on the fridge. Supersonic is less excusable because it is also written by the same guy who wrote force of nature and speed of sound and johnny guitar on the same album
Birds in Hell wrote:The music of Inside Job isn't bad.
And I mean, really, who cares about lyrics? They're just words.
sure, in the same way that music is just notes.
The notes actually matter, though.
Words in songs aren't written in a vacuum, some idealised expression of the writer's intent; they're often just the best word to fit that musical space with the right number of syllables, musically appropriate sounds, etc. They're just, you know, periphery. Sometimes pleasing periphery, sometimes less so, but not anywhere near as essential as the overall musical presentation.
So what your saying is new lyrics won't make Supersonic good?
harmless wrote:Ed has always self-referenced. I'm OK with it. I'd rather that than him trying to write something with a new subject. Johnny Guitar is the furthest he got.
and i don't want him to go there again. jg was awful. much worse than inside job.
Ed is too boring to be self referencing. Make some interesting shit up, I say.
He's "too boring" and yet you want him to make "interesting shit" up? Good luck with that.
If Ed self-references, he can only be as boring as the original songs imo. Anything that self-references my favourite PJ songs is at least worth giving a go. I also think Johnny Guitar was the best song on Backspacer, but it was most definitely a witty pop song and I wouldn't want it to represent Pearl Jam.
I'm not interested in a rich 50 year old family man's self references. I think the better choice would be to dream up some interesting things to say rather than Future Days type subject matter. Hopefully we get more of that...
What makes you think he'll suddenly come up with new and interesting things to say after the last two albums? I really wish people would stop bringing up the rich 50 year old family man crap.
He's boring an uninteresting to me as a person, that's all. Its not his fault. Younger Eddie was at least interesting. Its okay to fake it through some lyrics at 50 if it means we don't have to listen to love songs to his model wife and kids.
I don't give a shit whether he's 50 and rich, or his wife is a model. Being married and having kids is fucking wonderful and I don't mind if he sings about it. The experience isn't less true because he's rich and his wife is a model. Maybe you'd feel differently if you were a model.
Or maybe if I was one rolled up in blood.
Is that it? He's abandoned all his principles by marrying someone who models underwear for a living?
I don't care that hes married to someone hot and much taller than him, I just think its boring subject matter for a Pearl Jam song.
this may sound patronizing, but I can deal with the inside job lyrics because mike doesn't normally write lyrics, it was personal to him, etc. It doesn't make them good, but it's kinda like hanging up your kids artwork on the fridge. Supersonic is less excusable because it is also written by the same guy who wrote force of nature and speed of sound and johnny guitar on the same album
Yeah, but Mike isn't your kid, or one of your students. He's a professional fucking musician.
Birds in Hell wrote:The music of Inside Job isn't bad.
And I mean, really, who cares about lyrics? They're just words.
sure, in the same way that music is just notes.
The notes actually matter, though.
The words actually matter, though.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
Birds in Hell wrote:I don't know, I think looking for meaning in rock lyrics is a fool's errand. I think of vocals as an instrument in themselves: the sounds being made by the voice is what really matters, not what words are being sung.
To me, one of the most cringe inducing things is listening to someone analyze rock lyrics.
More than the lyrics themselves, it's how they marry with the song. There are plenty of simple or maybe even wonky lyrics that I love because they work so well in the context of the song. The Beatles are guilty of this quite often.
There are exceptions, of course. What I should have said was: One of the most cringe inducing things is listening to someone analyze Pearl Jam lyrics.
I think they have some lyrics that are genuinely worth analyzing.
Maybe they are, I don't know. But when I open a guided tour thread I just want to puke.
there's a pretty easy solution to that problem, chud
harmless wrote:Ed has always self-referenced. I'm OK with it. I'd rather that than him trying to write something with a new subject. Johnny Guitar is the furthest he got.
and i don't want him to go there again. jg was awful. much worse than inside job.
Ed is too boring to be self referencing. Make some interesting shit up, I say.
He's "too boring" and yet you want him to make "interesting shit" up? Good luck with that.
If Ed self-references, he can only be as boring as the original songs imo. Anything that self-references my favourite PJ songs is at least worth giving a go. I also think Johnny Guitar was the best song on Backspacer, but it was most definitely a witty pop song and I wouldn't want it to represent Pearl Jam.
I'm not interested in a rich 50 year old family man's self references. I think the better choice would be to dream up some interesting things to say rather than Future Days type subject matter. Hopefully we get more of that...
What makes you think he'll suddenly come up with new and interesting things to say after the last two albums? I really wish people would stop bringing up the rich 50 year old family man crap.
He's boring an uninteresting to me as a person, that's all. Its not his fault. Younger Eddie was at least interesting. Its okay to fake it through some lyrics at 50 if it means we don't have to listen to love songs to his model wife and kids.
I don't give a shit whether he's 50 and rich, or his wife is a model. Being married and having kids is fucking wonderful and I don't mind if he sings about it. The experience isn't less true because he's rich and his wife is a model. Maybe you'd feel differently if you were a model.
Or maybe if I was one rolled up in blood.
Is that it? He's abandoned all his principles by marrying someone who models underwear for a living?
I don't care that hes married to someone hot and much taller than him, I just think its boring subject matter for a Pearl Jam song.
this may sound patronizing, but I can deal with the inside job lyrics because mike doesn't normally write lyrics, it was personal to him, etc. It doesn't make them good, but it's kinda like hanging up your kids artwork on the fridge. Supersonic is less excusable because it is also written by the same guy who wrote force of nature and speed of sound and johnny guitar on the same album
Yeah, but Mike isn't your kid, or one of your students. He's a professional fucking musician.
Yeah, that decision was not made with the fans or product in mind, that is for sure. There had to have been a way to make Mike feel good that was more respectful to us as the listeners.
Birds in Hell wrote:The music of Inside Job isn't bad.
And I mean, really, who cares about lyrics? They're just words.
sure, in the same way that music is just notes.
The notes actually matter, though.
Words in songs aren't written in a vacuum, some idealised expression of the writer's intent; they're often just the best word to fit that musical space with the right number of syllables, musically appropriate sounds, etc. They're just, you know, periphery. Sometimes pleasing periphery, sometimes less so, but not anywhere near as essential as the overall musical presentation.
So what your saying is new lyrics won't make Supersonic good?
Not quite.
Different lyrics would provide different sounds and change the impact of Ed's vocals, as an instrument, on the song.
harmless wrote:Ed has always self-referenced. I'm OK with it. I'd rather that than him trying to write something with a new subject. Johnny Guitar is the furthest he got.
and i don't want him to go there again. jg was awful. much worse than inside job.
Ed is too boring to be self referencing. Make some interesting shit up, I say.
He's "too boring" and yet you want him to make "interesting shit" up? Good luck with that.
If Ed self-references, he can only be as boring as the original songs imo. Anything that self-references my favourite PJ songs is at least worth giving a go. I also think Johnny Guitar was the best song on Backspacer, but it was most definitely a witty pop song and I wouldn't want it to represent Pearl Jam.
I'm not interested in a rich 50 year old family man's self references. I think the better choice would be to dream up some interesting things to say rather than Future Days type subject matter. Hopefully we get more of that...
What makes you think he'll suddenly come up with new and interesting things to say after the last two albums? I really wish people would stop bringing up the rich 50 year old family man crap.
He's boring an uninteresting to me as a person, that's all. Its not his fault. Younger Eddie was at least interesting. Its okay to fake it through some lyrics at 50 if it means we don't have to listen to love songs to his model wife and kids.
I don't give a shit whether he's 50 and rich, or his wife is a model. Being married and having kids is fucking wonderful and I don't mind if he sings about it. The experience isn't less true because he's rich and his wife is a model. Maybe you'd feel differently if you were a model.
Or maybe if I was one rolled up in blood.
Is that it? He's abandoned all his principles by marrying someone who models underwear for a living?
I don't care that hes married to someone hot and much taller than him, I just think its boring subject matter for a Pearl Jam song.
this may sound patronizing, but I can deal with the inside job lyrics because mike doesn't normally write lyrics, it was personal to him, etc. It doesn't make them good, but it's kinda like hanging up your kids artwork on the fridge. Supersonic is less excusable because it is also written by the same guy who wrote force of nature and speed of sound and johnny guitar on the same album
Yeah, but Mike isn't your kid, or one of your students. He's a professional fucking musician.
yeah, and they aren't good, and I don't like them, and they're not on my fridge. But I can forgive him for them. I don't much care for inside job across the board. Like Platy said, it's just a little bland. But I'd be more likely to punish a song with bad lyrics written by stone or jeff or especially eddie because they can do good work if they want to
harmless wrote:Ed has always self-referenced. I'm OK with it. I'd rather that than him trying to write something with a new subject. Johnny Guitar is the furthest he got.
and i don't want him to go there again. jg was awful. much worse than inside job.
Ed is too boring to be self referencing. Make some interesting shit up, I say.
He's "too boring" and yet you want him to make "interesting shit" up? Good luck with that.
If Ed self-references, he can only be as boring as the original songs imo. Anything that self-references my favourite PJ songs is at least worth giving a go. I also think Johnny Guitar was the best song on Backspacer, but it was most definitely a witty pop song and I wouldn't want it to represent Pearl Jam.
I'm not interested in a rich 50 year old family man's self references. I think the better choice would be to dream up some interesting things to say rather than Future Days type subject matter. Hopefully we get more of that...
What makes you think he'll suddenly come up with new and interesting things to say after the last two albums? I really wish people would stop bringing up the rich 50 year old family man crap.
He's boring an uninteresting to me as a person, that's all. Its not his fault. Younger Eddie was at least interesting. Its okay to fake it through some lyrics at 50 if it means we don't have to listen to love songs to his model wife and kids.
I don't give a shit whether he's 50 and rich, or his wife is a model. Being married and having kids is fucking wonderful and I don't mind if he sings about it. The experience isn't less true because he's rich and his wife is a model. Maybe you'd feel differently if you were a model.
Or maybe if I was one rolled up in blood.
Is that it? He's abandoned all his principles by marrying someone who models underwear for a living?
I don't care that hes married to someone hot and much taller than him, I just think its boring subject matter for a Pearl Jam song.
this may sound patronizing, but I can deal with the inside job lyrics because mike doesn't normally write lyrics, it was personal to him, etc. It doesn't make them good, but it's kinda like hanging up your kids artwork on the fridge. Supersonic is less excusable because it is also written by the same guy who wrote force of nature and speed of sound and johnny guitar on the same album
Yeah, but Mike isn't your kid, or one of your students. He's a professional fucking musician.
Yeah, that decision was not made with the fans or product in mind, that is for sure. There had to have been a way to make Mike feel good that was more respectful to us as the listeners.
so what you're saying is that PJ needs to focus more on giving the fans what they want
Birds in Hell wrote:The music of Inside Job isn't bad.
And I mean, really, who cares about lyrics? They're just words.
sure, in the same way that music is just notes.
The notes actually matter, though.
The words actually matter, though.
Then explain to me why I like Sigur Ros?
Because Sigur Ros is Icelandic, so you have no choice but to appreciate the voice as instrument. Plus, Hopelandic is designed to appreciate without real words. Plus, Sigur Ros' music is fucking transcendent and euphoric, and its compositions and arrangements and production values are pretty much unrivalled at present. It's aural poetry. Sigur Ros has been shitting on PJ from a great height for the last several years. When PJ writes transcendent post-rock, I might forgive more of their lyrics.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
Music can be good or bad, so can words. Sometimes the music is good, but the words suck. Or the words are brilliant, and the music is awful. If that's the case you have to decide if one makes up for the other, or if you can still enjoy the overall song despite a shortcoming. It's not a one or other type thing, but you know all this.
harmless wrote:Ed has always self-referenced. I'm OK with it. I'd rather that than him trying to write something with a new subject. Johnny Guitar is the furthest he got.
and i don't want him to go there again. jg was awful. much worse than inside job.
Ed is too boring to be self referencing. Make some interesting shit up, I say.
He's "too boring" and yet you want him to make "interesting shit" up? Good luck with that.
If Ed self-references, he can only be as boring as the original songs imo. Anything that self-references my favourite PJ songs is at least worth giving a go. I also think Johnny Guitar was the best song on Backspacer, but it was most definitely a witty pop song and I wouldn't want it to represent Pearl Jam.
I'm not interested in a rich 50 year old family man's self references. I think the better choice would be to dream up some interesting things to say rather than Future Days type subject matter. Hopefully we get more of that...
What makes you think he'll suddenly come up with new and interesting things to say after the last two albums? I really wish people would stop bringing up the rich 50 year old family man crap.
He's boring an uninteresting to me as a person, that's all. Its not his fault. Younger Eddie was at least interesting. Its okay to fake it through some lyrics at 50 if it means we don't have to listen to love songs to his model wife and kids.
I don't give a shit whether he's 50 and rich, or his wife is a model. Being married and having kids is fucking wonderful and I don't mind if he sings about it. The experience isn't less true because he's rich and his wife is a model. Maybe you'd feel differently if you were a model.
Or maybe if I was one rolled up in blood.
Is that it? He's abandoned all his principles by marrying someone who models underwear for a living?
I don't care that hes married to someone hot and much taller than him, I just think its boring subject matter for a Pearl Jam song.
this may sound patronizing, but I can deal with the inside job lyrics because mike doesn't normally write lyrics, it was personal to him, etc. It doesn't make them good, but it's kinda like hanging up your kids artwork on the fridge. Supersonic is less excusable because it is also written by the same guy who wrote force of nature and speed of sound and johnny guitar on the same album
Yeah, but Mike isn't your kid, or one of your students. He's a professional fucking musician.
Yeah, that decision was not made with the fans or product in mind, that is for sure. There had to have been a way to make Mike feel good that was more respectful to us as the listeners.
so what you're saying is that PJ needs to focus more on giving the fans what they want
A little quality control would be nice. I as a fan, would want that. They are past the point of hurting each other's feelings for the sake of the product though.
