Election 2020

[verb_to_trust]

hilldog's still got bite in this 'The Hollywood Reporter" interview:

THR: In the doc, you're brutally honest on Sanders: "He was in Congress for years. He had one senator support him. Nobody likes him, nobody wants to work with him, he got nothing done. He was a career politician. It's all just baloney and I feel so bad that people got sucked into it." That assessment still hold?

Hillary: Yes, it does.

THR: If he gets the nomination, will you endorse and campaign for him?

HIllary: I'm not going to go there yet. We're still in a very vigorous primary season. I will say, however, that it's not only him, it's the culture around him. It's his leadership team. It's his prominent supporters. It's his online Bernie Bros and their relentless attacks on lots of his competitors, particularly the women. And I really hope people are paying attention to that because it should be worrisome that he has permitted this culture — not only permitted, [he] seems to really be very much supporting it. And I don't think we want to go down that road again where you campaign by insult and attack and maybe you try to get some distance from it, but you either don't know what your campaign and supporters are doing or you're just giving them a wink and you want them to go after Kamala [Harris] or after Elizabeth [Warren]. I think that that's a pattern that people should take into account when they make their decisions.

It's so hilarious when these fucks point fingers and say that so and so doesn't get anything done. None of you guys do. Stfu.

[Bi_3]

"It's All Just Baloney and I Feel So Bad That People Got Sucked Into It: The Bernie Sanders Story", debuting on Netflix December 2020.


Eh. Might be too like the Elizabeth Holmes story to draw an audience.

[McParadigm]

Offered one innocuous response to a twitter discussion about the Sanders campaign before bed last night, proposing that his followers’ aggressiveness and scolding nature online probably detracts a lot of others from coming into the tent, and therefore hurts the candidate they’re trying to promote...a candidate I would personally prefer over most of the rest of the field.

Woke up to 167 alerts on my twitter feed. A fourth of those are Bernie Bros raging at me, scolding me, and insisting that either the Democratic Party nominates him or they walk. The three 3/4 was just them getting likes from other Bernie Bros and bots.

So...point proven I guess?

[liebzz]

I know I will offend some people here, and I consider myself progressive minded, but I agree with Hillary Clinton’s assessment here. I’ve long felt that Bernie’s line of support and niche is at the very least tacitly complicit with or at worst actively engaging in the same tactics as Trump but from the left. The lack of shame for ruthlessly attacking even slight disagreement as a failure of fealty to Bernie is not more acceptable because he’s frumpy and crotchety in a way that is endearing to progressives. That sense of endearing and pushing good issues in 2016 plays more like a tired routine and acidic attempts at division in 2020. Bernie should be actively engaging with his supporters to back off nonsense like NeverWarren or ratcheting up misleading information on social media that exaggerates differences between candidates. They come off like a liberal cult, and it’s very unappealing and sorry to say Bernie folks, will not defeat Trump. It will just keep a lot of voters home choosing between a dangerous billionaire and the viciously entitled class in the shape of Bernie Bros.

Say they don’t represent the ground swell of Sanders supporters and I will accept that and retort that it is then this campaigns responsibility to put to bed the viciousness associated with the Sanders campaign purity tests.

[Superblood Wolfmoon]

The point being that you tried to offer a rational response on Twitter and a bunch of cretins shouted you down?

[LoathedVermin72]

I can’t imagine why anyone would give a fuck about what Hillary has to say about anything at this point. Shocking that she would attack the leftist she successfully aided in hobbling in 2016. Establishment dems know who the real threat to their rule is.

[McParadigm]

The point being that you tried to offer a rational response on Twitter and a bunch of cretins shouted you down?

I argue with Biden and Pete supporters all the time. They never respond with “if the party is too corrupt to choose (x) then lets burn it to the ground.”

It reminds me of nothing else as much as it does the way that Trump supporters talked about the Republican Party during the primary.

[Green Habit]

I feel like if you want to bash Bernie on this, you don't need to go galaxy brain. Just observe that he's not a Democrat, never has been a Democrat, and is trying to win the Democratic nomination as a non-Democrat.

Now, I'm intentionally offering an uncharitable take here that I don't 100% agree with--Bernie obviously caucuses with the Dems in the Senate, and has worked well with them in there for years. But his idiosyncratic refusal to actually be a Democrat attracts a lot of the purity cultists on the left liebzz describes that see themselves as too good to stoop to the audacious idea that in politics, especially in the American system, you have to form very broad coalitions to gain power.

[liebzz]

It’s not his positions themselves that are offensive, it’s the response when someone doesn’t agree or even worse, offers an idea that incorporates many elements of Bernie’s ideas but doesn’t match completely. Politics, from this country’s founding, has never been zero sum (which is what the founders of this country warned against). At some point you have to engage different views in a way that doesn’t either dismiss or vilify them. This is precisely the reason Bernie will be incapable of transitioning from advocate to governing.

[Anders]

Good points by Hillary, McParadigm and liebzz.

[LoathedVermin72]

I’m sorry Anders but they were all terrible points

[Rob]

I don't necessarily agree with the sentiments in the last few posts, but they are reasonable. I would just point out that Sanders right now is a solid #2 choice in the primary, at or near 1st in the first 2-3 contests, and maybe most importantly - the 2nd choice among more of Biden's supporters than anyone else, partly because he's got more support among minority groups than anyone but Biden. His coalition is more broad than all but the front-runner, with the ability to pull as many non-traditional voters as anyone. He has real issues with the party, for sure, but not with the voters at large. Biden & Bernie are the only 2 candidates at the moment who poll well across all groups that make up the party, with the only real difference being old vs young, which they split unevenly.

He isn't palatable to everyone, and that's ok. Personally I think he should tone it down a bit and just keep doing what he's been doing the last 4 years. But the fact that someone who refuses to officially join the party can do this well speaks to a party that is in need of some change.

[liebzz]

I don't necessarily agree with the sentiments in the last few posts, but they are reasonable. I would just point out that Sanders right now is a solid #2 choice in the primary, at or near 1st in the first 2-3 contests, and maybe most importantly - the 2nd choice among more of Biden's supporters than anyone else, partly because he's got more support among minority groups than anyone but Biden. His coalition is more broad than all but the front-runner, with the ability to pull as many non-traditional voters as anyone. He has real issues with the party, for sure, but not with the voters at large. Biden & Bernie are the only 2 candidates at the moment who poll well across all groups that make up the party, with the only real difference being old vs young, which they split unevenly.

He isn't palatable to everyone, and that's ok. Personally I think he should tone it down a bit and just keep doing what he's been doing the last 4 years. But the fact that someone who refuses to officially join the party can do this well speaks to a party that is in need of some change.

There are some excellent points here, and I do think that the party is hungry for change and a real progressive shift, but I think the issue is that I don’t think the party is ready or should be uncompromising. At the same time, I also don’t think the party is comfortable with over-compromise. I think that may be the reason Biden and Bernie are relatively even right now - but that still seems to be less than half of primary voter at this stage. People are hungry for something, I am not sure they know exactly what yet.

I would have thought Warren would fit this bill as both progressive and a pragmatist about those positions, but I think she has been stepping on her own foot in a way that, honestly speaking, a male candidate would have easily and has easily gotten away with. It’s sad and upsetting that her margin for error is less than say candidates of similar positioning but male. I am not playing the gender card as much as observing it as a political reality right now, even from the party that is claiming to be committed to diversity and inclusion.

[LoathedVermin72]

Who cares what the party is ready for? Fuck the party. The party has failed us. It’s time for something new.

[McParadigm]

Your honor I rest my case

[LoathedVermin72]

Yeah. I’m not a democrat. I don’t believe in the party’s politics at all. The society they have stewarded for people in my generation and below is fucking grim. Why on earth would I vote for one of them? A “return to normalcy” dem presidency would be the absolute worst outcome of the Trump disruption.

[Rob]

I would have thought Warren would fit this bill as both progressive and a pragmatist about those positions,

There is some time left, so who knows. She does seem to split the difference a bit. Really wish she ran in 2016.

Yeah. I’m not a democrat. I don’t believe in the party’s politics at all. The society they have stewarded for people in my generation and below is fucking grim. Why on earth would I vote for one of them? A “return to normalcy” dem presidency would be the absolute worst outcome of the Trump disruption.

I'm not really a Dem either, but it should be about building something new (a new normal) than tearing something down. I do believe this is the Bernie vision.

[Hatfield]

hilldog's still got bite in this 'The Hollywood Reporter" interview:

THR: In the doc, you're brutally honest on Sanders: "He was in Congress for years. He had one senator support him. Nobody likes him, nobody wants to work with him, he got nothing done. He was a career politician. It's all just baloney and I feel so bad that people got sucked into it." That assessment still hold?

Hillary: Yes, it does.

THR: If he gets the nomination, will you endorse and campaign for him?

HIllary: I'm not going to go there yet. We're still in a very vigorous primary season. I will say, however, that it's not only him, it's the culture around him. It's his leadership team. It's his prominent supporters. It's his online Bernie Bros and their relentless attacks on lots of his competitors, particularly the women. And I really hope people are paying attention to that because it should be worrisome that he has permitted this culture — not only permitted, [he] seems to really be very much supporting it. And I don't think we want to go down that road again where you campaign by insult and attack and maybe you try to get some distance from it, but you either don't know what your campaign and supporters are doing or you're just giving them a wink and you want them to go after Kamala [Harris] or after Elizabeth [Warren]. I think that that's a pattern that people should take into account when they make their decisions.

Thank you for saving me the time, Rob! Her hypocrisy knows no bounds.

[McParadigm]

Yeah. I’m not a democrat. I don’t believe in the party’s politics at all. The society they have stewarded for people in my generation and below is fucking grim. Why on earth would I vote for one of them? A “return to normalcy” dem presidency would be the absolute worst outcome of the Trump disruption.

And that’s your worldview. Cool. I’m not talking about worldviews. I’m pointing out the fact that those expressions and attitudes are diametrically opposed to any effort you might make to build a coalition that can win a primary and an election.

You’ll never enact the policy platform you claim to want without bringing other people into the tent. All this “fuck off” stuff does is help you feel righteous. And as someone else who wants the agenda espoused by Sanders to thrive, it saddens me to watch his followers waste time trying to berate and threaten their way to the presidency, because it’s as despicable to me as it is ineffective.

[LoathedVermin72]

Yeah. I’m not a democrat. I don’t believe in the party’s politics at all. The society they have stewarded for people in my generation and below is fucking grim. Why on earth would I vote for one of them? A “return to normalcy” dem presidency would be the absolute worst outcome of the Trump disruption.

And that’s your worldview. Cool. I’m not talking about worldviews. I’m pointing out the fact that those expressions and attitudes are diametrically opposed to any effort you might make to build a coalition that can win a primary and an election.

You’ll never enact the policy platform you claim to want without bringing other people into the tent. All this “fuck off” stuff does is help you feel righteous. And as someone else who wants the agenda espoused by Sanders to thrive, it saddens me to watch his followers waste time trying to berate and threaten their way to the presidency, because it’s as despicable to me as it is ineffective.

Well, I think you’re wrong. And I don’t think you pull new people in by kowtowing to centrism.