Boston Red Sox Thread

[numbers]

When Farrell was here, it wasnt bad. Once Farrell left, Beckett took over the pitching staff and turned them into the lazy degenerates he had become.

Man, I wish the Jays had had a miracle worker like Farrell around last year to fix Ricky Romero!

I'm not saying Farrell is a miracle worker, it's just he was a good authority figure as pitching coach. When he left, they brought in Curt Young and that string of guys they had last year and Beckett was essentially the authority figure.

But I think that perception only exists because the results were negative. You never hear about locker room issues on successful, winning teams. No one complained about Beckett and Gonzalez until September, 2011. Is that because winning teams don't have clubhouse issues? Of course it isn't. It's because the team is winning, so no one gives a shit.

Good clubhouses don't lead to winning teams. More often than not, winning teams lead to good clubhouses.

No team has a perfect "good clubhouse," but when a teams clubhouse issues become bad enough that they become public, it's so bad that a team cant win.

[MattA75]

When Farrell was here, it wasnt bad. Once Farrell left, Beckett took over the pitching staff and turned them into the lazy degenerates he had become.

Man, I wish the Jays had had a miracle worker like Farrell around last year to fix Ricky Romero!

I'm not saying Farrell is a miracle worker, it's just he was a good authority figure as pitching coach. When he left, they brought in Curt Young and that string of guys they had last year and Beckett was essentially the authority figure.

But I think that perception only exists because the results were negative. You never hear about locker room issues on successful, winning teams. No one complained about Beckett and Gonzalez until September, 2011. Is that because winning teams don't have clubhouse issues? Of course it isn't. It's because the team is winning, so no one gives a shit.

Good clubhouses don't lead to winning teams. More often than not, winning teams lead to good clubhouses.

Plenty of people had complained about Beckett long before 2011...in fact, he got more of a rope than some other guys would have for no other reason than his 2007 run and what it meant to that title

as for Gonzalez, he brought the scorn on himself by blaming the schedule at the end of 2011 (Sunday night games), and then he was still running his mouth in spring training this year...this was a guy who not only was part of the 2011 Red Sox collapse, but was also part of a pretty awful collapse by San Diego the year prior...and the Dodgers were a .500 team last year after the trade, while they were 10 games over .500 before it...can all of that be attributed directly to Gonzalez? Of course not, but seems to be a trend, no? This year, the Dodgers have ridden Kershaw and a weak division to a big lead...big deal...

[philpritchard]

When Farrell was here, it wasnt bad. Once Farrell left, Beckett took over the pitching staff and turned them into the lazy degenerates he had become.

Man, I wish the Jays had had a miracle worker like Farrell around last year to fix Ricky Romero!

I'm not saying Farrell is a miracle worker, it's just he was a good authority figure as pitching coach. When he left, they brought in Curt Young and that string of guys they had last year and Beckett was essentially the authority figure.

But I think that perception only exists because the results were negative. You never hear about locker room issues on successful, winning teams. No one complained about Beckett and Gonzalez until September, 2011. Is that because winning teams don't have clubhouse issues? Of course it isn't. It's because the team is winning, so no one gives a shit.

Good clubhouses don't lead to winning teams. More often than not, winning teams lead to good clubhouses.

Plenty of people had complained about Beckett long before 2011...in fact, he got more of a rope than some other guys would have for no other reason than his 2007 run and what it meant to that title

as for Gonzalez, he brought the scorn on himself by blaming the schedule at the end of 2011 (Sunday night games), and then he was still running his mouth in spring training this year...this was a guy who not only was part of the 2011 Red Sox collapse, but was also part of a pretty awful collapse by San Diego the year prior...and the Dodgers were a .500 team last year after the trade, while they were 10 games over .500 before it...can all of that be attributed directly to Gonzalez? Of course not, but seems to be a trend, no? This year, the Dodgers have ridden Kershaw and a weak division to a big lead...big deal...

But you're just picking and choosing points that fit your perception. I could do that with literally any player ever.

Boston trades him and gets better because he's gone.
Los Angeles acquires him and gets better... but only because it's a weak division.

You can't blame him for Boston sucking and at the same time shrug off the impact that he's had on his current team. He's just an easy target to blame for everything that went wrong while he was in Boston.

[elliseamos]

also consider that beckett hasn't been pitching for the dodgers this year... so his influence, for what it's worth, cannot be calculated with regard to the dodgers current clubhouse.

as for gonzalez, it's pretty clear he's not a leader. therefore, being able to shirk the responsibilities that someone of his pay-grade typically endures, while in a town as drastically different from boston as los angeles, makes me think you're not paying attention, phil.

[philpritchard]

also consider that beckett hasn't been pitching for the dodgers this year... so his influence, for what it's worth, cannot be calculated with regard to the dodgers current clubhouse.

as for gonzalez, it's pretty clear he's not a leader. therefore, being able to shirk the responsibilities that someone of his pay-grade typically endures, while in a town as drastically different from boston as los angeles, makes me think you're not paying attention, phil.

You're really stretching it here.

[elliseamos]

also consider that beckett hasn't been pitching for the dodgers this year... so his influence, for what it's worth, cannot be calculated with regard to the dodgers current clubhouse.

as for gonzalez, it's pretty clear he's not a leader. therefore, being able to shirk the responsibilities that someone of his pay-grade typically endures, while in a town as drastically different from boston as los angeles, makes me think you're not paying attention, phil.

You're really stretching it here.

well i wouldn't want to pull something.

[philpritchard]

also consider that beckett hasn't been pitching for the dodgers this year... so his influence, for what it's worth, cannot be calculated with regard to the dodgers current clubhouse.

as for gonzalez, it's pretty clear he's not a leader. therefore, being able to shirk the responsibilities that someone of his pay-grade typically endures, while in a town as drastically different from boston as los angeles, makes me think you're not paying attention, phil.

You're really stretching it here.

well i wouldn't want to pull something.

Ba dum tssh!

[numbers]

Gonzalez has yet to play an important game with the Dodgers. The way things shook out, when they went on that run they just ran away with the division to the point where they never have had an important game this year. We'll see what Gonzalez does in the playoffs, my money is on a disappearing act.

[philpritchard]

Gonzalez has yet to play an important game with the Dodgers. The way things shook out, when they went on that run they just ran away with the division to the point where they never have had an important game this year. We'll see what Gonzalez does in the playoffs, my money is on a disappearing act.

Just like he disappeared in September of 2011! And by "disappeared" I clearly mean "played extremely well while the pitching and some of the other key hitters collapsed because he said some things to the media that hurt their feelings and they just couldn't stand playing with him anymore."

[numbers]

I really dont give a damn what Gonzalez' numbers that month are, he was a useless slug.

[Norah]

I don't completely disagree with you, numbers, but sometimes you take the "i don't care what his numbers are" thing way too far.

[numbers]

I don't completely disagree with you, numbers, but sometimes you take the "i don't care what his numbers are" thing way too far.

This is a perfect example of it, though.

[philpritchard]

Explain how he was a useless slug, then. I know you don't like stats, so I'll simplify it here: in September of 2011, Adrian Gonzalez got a lot of hits, walked a ton and hit for power.

The problem is, stats tell a much more accurate story than your memory of a particular time frame possibly could. That's why they exist.

[numbers]

Explain how he was a useless slug, then. I know you don't like stats, so I'll simplify it here: in September of 2011, Adrian Gonzalez got a lot of hits, walked a ton and hit for power.

The problem is, stats tell a much more accurate story than your memory of a particular time frame possibly could. That's why they exist.

I dont mind stats, but I also dont think they are the sole format of evaluation of a player. Gonzalez did nothing to help the team win that month, he would pile on a 3 run HR in a game that was already 7-0, or get a single with the bases loaded and no body out, stuff like that. When he came up with two on and two out in the 8th inning of a tie game, he struck out or grounded to first. Not to mention the clubhouse presence, I know you think a team can have 25 serial killer pedophiles, but as long as they have talent and good UZR, the team will win, but thats not how it works in real life.

[Coach]

No way was Gonzalez the problem. A silver slugger and gold glover. Great player. Things just went bad and losing kills everything.

[Green Habit]

Sorry to interrupt this debate, but fuck yeah Carp.

[philpritchard]

I dont mind stats, but I also dont think they are the sole format of evaluation of a player. Gonzalez did nothing to help the team win that month, he would pile on a 3 run HR in a game that was already 7-0, or get a single with the bases loaded and no body out, stuff like that. When he came up with two on and two out in the 8th inning of a tie game, he struck out or grounded to first. Not to mention the clubhouse presence, I know you think a team can have 25 serial killer pedophiles, but as long as they have talent and good UZR, the team will win, but thats not how it works in real life.

But you're remembering based on a select few appearances that are colouring your perception of what he actually did. Can you remember all 110 plate appearances from the month? You absolutely can't. That's why we have stats... they tell us what happened over a large sample size that we can't possibly keep track of in our minds. There's actually a stat, believe it or not, that takes into account the importance of every plate appearance and assigns positive or negative value based on how the player fared. It's called Win Probability Added. Here are some Boston WPAs from September of 2011:

Ellsbury: 1.445
Gonzalez: 0.778
Pedroia: -0.183
Ortiz: -0.389

Gonzalez also hit four homeruns that month: a two-run shot in the 9th while down three runs, a game-tying homerun in the 5th, one to pad a one-run lead in the 6th, and a two-run shot while down three in the 3rd. Those are all very important hits.

You might remember it one way, but in reality, Pedroia and Ortiz were the useless slugs on offense during the collapse. Ellsbury was unbelievable, and Gonzalez was really good. I know you'll just come back with "I know what happened because I watched the games," but it's just not true; you know what you think you remember happening. What you think you remember happening didn't actually happen.

[MattA75]

Anyone who watched the games in September of 2011 would attest that Gonzalez did not pass the eyeball test, or come anywhere close to it

and I love this team right now, they have what the 2011 team lacked: BALLS

[philpritchard]

Anyone who watched the games in September of 2011 would attest that Gonzalez did not pass the eyeball test, or come anywhere close to it

And what would they think of Pedroia and Ortiz that month?

[Simple Torture]

and I love this team right now, they have what the 2011 team lacked: BEARDS

ftfy