Lets Actually Listen to the Album: Backspacer

[Tuolumne]

There's a lot wrong with Vitalogy too, but it doesn't garner the type of hate Backspacer does.

There's nothing wrong with Vitalogy.

That's cause Vitalogy didn't come out during the message board internet era. Imagine if it did?

It's 1994, Ten/Vs era in full effect. People are still in love w/ Eddie - long hair, stage diving, singing Jeremy and Black. Then he puts on a guitar on SNL and does "Not For You", then "Spin the Black Circle" comes out as the single. MOST people I knew at the time were iffy on this direction. They wanted "Jeremy" and "Small Town", again and again. Alot still went ahead and bought it to try it out and then pretty much chucked it. Even moreso with No Code and "Who You Are". They were over PJ.

The message boards would have been going apeshit. The LB thread is nothing.

You're saying the record definitely has problems because of the hypothetical reaction on a hypothetical message board would have hypothetically been quite negative?

I'm not saying it doesn't have problems and you have to love it btw, I don't actually like NFY and nothing man that much (still beat anything on the last 2 albums though )

First, Vitalogy is my absolute favorite album.

Second, what I'm trying to say is that the internet message boards have a role in altering the perception of an album. There wasn't that kind of vigorous online debate for Vitalogy cause there wasn't much of an internet back in 1994. If there was, I think Vitalogy would be much more polarizing on the internet than Backspacer. This is because PJ was generally bigger back then, and Vitalogy being the great (and polarizing) album it is would have sparked more debate than Backspacer is right now. I can't actually prove this, it's just my opinion.

[EJ]

First, Vitalogy is my absolute favorite album.

Second, what I'm trying to say is that the internet message boards have a role in altering the perception of an album. There wasn't that kind of vigorous online debate for Vitalogy cause there wasn't much of an internet back in 1994. If there was, I think Vitalogy would be much more polarizing on the internet than Backspacer. This is because PJ was generally bigger back then, and Vitalogy being the great (and polarizing) album it is would have sparked more debate than Backspacer is right now. I can't actually prove this, it's just my opinion.

I completely agree.

[harmless]

There's a lot wrong with Vitalogy too, but it doesn't garner the type of hate Backspacer does.

There's nothing wrong with Vitalogy.

That's cause Vitalogy didn't come out during the message board internet era. Imagine if it did?

It's 1994, Ten/Vs era in full effect. People are still in love w/ Eddie - long hair, stage diving, singing Jeremy and Black. Then he puts on a guitar on SNL and does "Not For You", then "Spin the Black Circle" comes out as the single. MOST people I knew at the time were iffy on this direction. They wanted "Jeremy" and "Small Town", again and again. Alot still went ahead and bought it to try it out and then pretty much chucked it. Even moreso with No Code and "Who You Are". They were over PJ.

The message boards would have been going apeshit. The LB thread is nothing.

You're saying the record definitely has problems because of the hypothetical reaction on a hypothetical message board would have hypothetically been quite negative?

I'm not saying it doesn't have problems and you have to love it btw, I don't actually like NFY and nothing man that much (still beat anything on the last 2 albums though )

First, Vitalogy is my absolute favorite album.

Second, what I'm trying to say is that the internet message boards have a role in altering the perception of an album. There wasn't that kind of vigorous online debate for Vitalogy cause there wasn't much of an internet back in 1994. If there was, I think Vitalogy would be much more polarizing on the internet than Backspacer. This is because PJ was generally bigger back then, and Vitalogy being the great (and polarizing) album it is would have sparked more debate than Backspacer is right now. I can't actually prove this, it's just my opinion.

That's one of the better 'crazy theory' / 'decent clarification' one-two punches I've read.

[Tuolumne]

Most Vitalogy "haters" left before there were internet message boards to post on. That's one reason why it seems so perfect now. The Vitalogy lovers (which include me, it's my favorite album) are the ones who stuck around into the late 90s as the PJ internet message boards got going.

I like the fact that you love Vitalogy as much as I do. But that seems like a strange argument otherwise.

Why?

The PJ internet message boards really got going in the late 90's. I was there for 5 horizons MFC and the early incarnate of the message boards (forget what it was called) that eventually became theskyiscrape. It was the late 90's era fans when the Yield tour was going. It was when the mainstream glow of PJ was over and the "true believer" fan era was really getting going. The Ten/Vs fans were still coming to the shows expecting the hits. The message boards were the fans like us who knew the rarities, listened to the live bootlegs, etc, etc.

I generally think Vitalogy was a dividing point between the 2 eras. 1 side were the so-called "fairweather" Ten/Vs fans and the others fans were the Vitalogy/No Code fans. I believe those fans eventually became US (as in Red Mosquito type posters, current Ten Club members, all the fans who helped be part of the "cult" culture the band is now known for).

Vitalogy was it. It was a polarizer. It's just not that well documented cause we don't have old internet threads to look back on. But people loved or hated it. Again, I can't prove it (well, I sort of can, what was the sales drop off between Vitalogy and No Code? damn alot of people left the band).

I dunno, it's my theory.

[harmless]

Most Vitalogy "haters" left before there were internet message boards to post on. That's one reason why it seems so perfect now. The Vitalogy lovers (which include me, it's my favorite album) are the ones who stuck around into the late 90s as the PJ internet message boards got going.

I like the fact that you love Vitalogy as much as I do. But that seems like a strange argument otherwise.

Why?

The PJ internet message boards really got going in the late 90's. I was there for 5 horizons MFC and the early incarnate of the message boards (forget what it was called) that eventually became theskyiscrape. It was the late 90's era fans when the Yield tour was going. It was when the mainstream glow of PJ was over and the "true believer" fan era was really getting going. The Ten/Vs fans were still coming to the shows expecting the hits. The message boards were the fans like us who knew the rarities, listened to the live bootlegs, etc, etc.

I generally think Vitalogy was a dividing point between the 2 eras. 1 side were the so-called "fairweather" Ten/Vs fans and the others fans were the Vitalogy/No Code fans. I believe those fans eventually became US (as in Red Mosquito type posters, current Ten Club members, all the fans who helped be part of the "cult" culture the band is now known for).

Vitalogy was it. It was a polarizer. It's just not that well documented cause we don't have old internet threads to look back on. But people loved or hated it. Again, I can't prove it (well, I sort of can, what was the sales drop off between Vitalogy and No Code? damn alot of people left the band).

I dunno, it's my theory.

You need to read my next post before jumping.

[LikeLukin]

Most Vitalogy "haters" left before there were internet message boards to post on. That's one reason why it seems so perfect now. The Vitalogy lovers (which include me, it's my favorite album) are the ones who stuck around into the late 90s as the PJ internet message boards got going.

I like the fact that you love Vitalogy as much as I do. But that seems like a strange argument otherwise.

Why?

The PJ internet message boards really got going in the late 90's. I was there for 5 horizons MFC and the early incarnate of the message boards (forget what it was called) that eventually became theskyiscrape. It was the late 90's era fans when the Yield tour was going. It was when the mainstream glow of PJ was over and the "true believer" fan era was really getting going. The Ten/Vs fans were still coming to the shows expecting the hits. The message boards were the fans like us who knew the rarities, listened to the live bootlegs, etc, etc.

I generally think Vitalogy was a dividing point between the 2 eras. 1 side were the so-called "fairweather" Ten/Vs fans and the others fans were the Vitalogy/No Code fans. I believe those fans eventually became US (as in Red Mosquito type posters, current Ten Club members, all the fans who helped be part of the "cult" culture the band is now known for).

Vitalogy was it. It was a polarizer. It's just not that well documented cause we don't have old internet threads to look back on. But people loved or hated it. Again, I can't prove it (well, I sort of can, what was the sales drop off between Vitalogy and No Code? damn alot of people left the band).

I dunno, it's my theory.

[stupidmop]

There's a lot wrong with Vitalogy too, but it doesn't garner the type of hate Backspacer does.

There's nothing wrong with Vitalogy.

That's cause Vitalogy didn't come out during the message board internet era. Imagine if it did?

It's 1994, Ten/Vs era in full effect. People are still in love w/ Eddie - long hair, stage diving, singing Jeremy and Black. Then he puts on a guitar on SNL and does "Not For You", then "Spin the Black Circle" comes out as the single. MOST people I knew at the time were iffy on this direction. They wanted "Jeremy" and "Small Town", again and again. Alot still went ahead and bought it to try it out and then pretty much chucked it. Even moreso with No Code and "Who You Are". They were over PJ.

The message boards would have been going apeshit. The LB thread is nothing.

You're saying the record definitely has problems because of the hypothetical reaction on a hypothetical message board would have hypothetically been quite negative?

I'm not saying it doesn't have problems and you have to love it btw, I don't actually like NFY and nothing man that much (still beat anything on the last 2 albums though )

First, Vitalogy is my absolute favorite album.

Second, what I'm trying to say is that the internet message boards have a role in altering the perception of an album. There wasn't that kind of vigorous online debate for Vitalogy cause there wasn't much of an internet back in 1994. If there was, I think Vitalogy would be much more polarizing on the internet than Backspacer. This is because PJ was generally bigger back then, and Vitalogy being the great (and polarizing) album it is would have sparked more debate than Backspacer is right now. I can't actually prove this, it's just my opinion.

Ah understood! This could have all been avoided if I had noticed the first quote and realised you were responding to ' why doesn't vitalogy get the same hate as backspacer' rather than just 'there's nothing wrong with vitalogy'. My apologies.

I still think backspacers cheesy pop punk/shiny/Aw huh/we wrote this in a week/target/its easy so we can play it live coming after 20 years of pearl jams dark/ angry/dour/ its all about the music maaan/ image would still be the bigger reaction.

I can imaging the posts back then though, they're posers/ eddies a fake/trying to be Kurt cobain, PETITION TO BRING BACK ABBRUSSEZE, wtf is that hippy shit who you are etc

[digster]

I think while it's true that Vitalogy would have sparked a big debate if there had been message boards back then, I don't think it'd be for the same reasons. I don't see the Backspacer critics really being polarized by this difficult, weird stand of a record that PJ was making. I think they just think the music is pretty shoddy.

[Tuolumne]

Most Vitalogy "haters" left before there were internet message boards to post on. That's one reason why it seems so perfect now. The Vitalogy lovers (which include me, it's my favorite album) are the ones who stuck around into the late 90s as the PJ internet message boards got going.

I like the fact that you love Vitalogy as much as I do. But that seems like a strange argument otherwise.

Why?

The PJ internet message boards really got going in the late 90's. I was there for 5 horizons MFC and the early incarnate of the message boards (forget what it was called) that eventually became theskyiscrape. It was the late 90's era fans when the Yield tour was going. It was when the mainstream glow of PJ was over and the "true believer" fan era was really getting going. The Ten/Vs fans were still coming to the shows expecting the hits. The message boards were the fans like us who knew the rarities, listened to the live bootlegs, etc, etc.

I generally think Vitalogy was a dividing point between the 2 eras. 1 side were the so-called "fairweather" Ten/Vs fans and the others fans were the Vitalogy/No Code fans. I believe those fans eventually became US (as in Red Mosquito type posters, current Ten Club members, all the fans who helped be part of the "cult" culture the band is now known for).

Vitalogy was it. It was a polarizer. It's just not that well documented cause we don't have old internet threads to look back on. But people loved or hated it. Again, I can't prove it (well, I sort of can, what was the sales drop off between Vitalogy and No Code? damn alot of people left the band).

I dunno, it's my theory.

You need to read my next post before jumping.

Yeah, I read it after the fact.

[Mine]

....also the official message board theory is that No Code was the polarizing/alienating one.
Vitalogy being a turn off for part of the fanbase is only recently becoming an acceptable theory. I think it started as early as Vs. as far as I can tell.
Pearl Jam's career path and popularity is relatively complex and i don't find most of discussions about it particularly objective or realistic because the view of people who "were there from the beginning" tends to be very romantic. What i mean with this is that PJ were part of a phenomenon and their early success was relative to that and was supported by promotion and hurt by the successive lack of it. Plus i imagine Ten was extremely appealing to a large audience because in my opinion it was a repackaging from everything called rock in the late 80's plus it was cool to like because it was labelled grunge. By Vitalogy their music was different, their promotion unexistant compared to what 10 had and the grunge hype was essentially gone.

[digster]

I don't think it has to really be one thing or record that turned fans against the band. It was probably Vitalogy, it was also probably No Code. It was probably the fact that any publicity the band got in 95 was bad publicity, whether it was canceled tours or shows, or the endless Ticketmaster back and forth. I think it was just the sum total of a two-year period of time when PJ was in some rough waters.

[Mine]

I don't think it has to really be one thing or record that turned fans against the band. It was probably Vitalogy, it was also probably No Code. It was probably the fact that any publicity the band got in 95 was bad publicity, whether it was canceled tours or shows, or the endless Ticketmaster back and forth.

yup. IMHO the whole thing about No Code having the intent of turning the fanbase off was a marketing strategy/pseudo damage control.

[Biff Pocoroba]

I remember my friends liking the actual songs on Vitalogy, not so much the Pry to & Aye Davanita and especially not Bugs and Hey Foxymop.

[Tuolumne]

I think while it's true that Vitalogy would have sparked a big debate if there had been message boards back then, I don't think it'd be for the same reasons. I don't see the Backspacer critics really being polarized by this difficult, weird stand of a record that PJ was making. I think they just think the music is pretty shoddy.

Sure, that's a valid point. But when different ablums polarize 15 years apart, they polarize different types of fans.

Me, for example, I'm a Vitalogy die-hard, probably like the majority of people here. But I am a Backspacer supporter, an album 15 years later. It's just different factions breaking off at different times, if that makes any sense.

[Tuolumne]

Most Vitalogy "haters" left before there were internet message boards to post on. That's one reason why it seems so perfect now. The Vitalogy lovers (which include me, it's my favorite album) are the ones who stuck around into the late 90s as the PJ internet message boards got going.

I like the fact that you love Vitalogy as much as I do. But that seems like a strange argument otherwise.

Why?

The PJ internet message boards really got going in the late 90's. I was there for 5 horizons MFC and the early incarnate of the message boards (forget what it was called) that eventually became theskyiscrape. It was the late 90's era fans when the Yield tour was going. It was when the mainstream glow of PJ was over and the "true believer" fan era was really getting going. The Ten/Vs fans were still coming to the shows expecting the hits. The message boards were the fans like us who knew the rarities, listened to the live bootlegs, etc, etc.

I generally think Vitalogy was a dividing point between the 2 eras. 1 side were the so-called "fairweather" Ten/Vs fans and the others fans were the Vitalogy/No Code fans. I believe those fans eventually became US (as in Red Mosquito type posters, current Ten Club members, all the fans who helped be part of the "cult" culture the band is now known for).

Vitalogy was it. It was a polarizer. It's just not that well documented cause we don't have old internet threads to look back on. But people loved or hated it. Again, I can't prove it (well, I sort of can, what was the sales drop off between Vitalogy and No Code? damn alot of people left the band).

I dunno, it's my theory.

You need to read my next post before jumping.

Yeah, I read it after the fact.

So, to tie my whole point here back to Backspacer, I think it's totally okay if a bunch of people from a certain faction of the fanbase (in this case the RM message board) don't like an album. What I do have a problem with is the assumption that it means the entire fanbase is down on it. I don't think that's true, I think certain people love it and certain people dislike it. I think this sort of thing is what happens to any band that goes for this long that's worth their salt. Personally, I thik if you don't like Backspacer, I'd keep it around and put back on again a few years down the line. You might be surprised to find that it was a refreshing little turn in their career. Or you might not.

[stip]

Most Vitalogy "haters" left before there were internet message boards to post on. That's one reason why it seems so perfect now. The Vitalogy lovers (which include me, it's my favorite album) are the ones who stuck around into the late 90s as the PJ internet message boards got going.

I like the fact that you love Vitalogy as much as I do. But that seems like a strange argument otherwise.

why? We know that this happened, after all? There were precipitous drops in the record sales (which does speak to this, especially in that era) after each record until no code, at which point it seems to stabilize.

[harmless]

Most Vitalogy "haters" left before there were internet message boards to post on. That's one reason why it seems so perfect now. The Vitalogy lovers (which include me, it's my favorite album) are the ones who stuck around into the late 90s as the PJ internet message boards got going.

I like the fact that you love Vitalogy as much as I do. But that seems like a strange argument otherwise.

why? We know that this happened, after all? There were precipitous drops in the record sales (which does speak to this, especially in that era) after each record until no code, at which point it seems to stabilize.

Again, you should've read my next reply where I agreed with the elaboration of this post.

[WaitingForBluey]

So, to tie my whole point here back to Backspacer, I think it's totally okay if a bunch of people from a certain faction of the fanbase (in this case the RM message board) don't like an album. What I do have a problem with is the assumption that it means the entire fanbase is down on it. I don't think that's true, I think certain people love it and certain people dislike it. I think this sort of thing is what happens to any band that goes for this long that's worth their salt. Personally, I think if you don't like Backspacer, I'd keep it around and put it back on again a few years down the line. You might be surprised to find that it was a refreshing little turn in their career. Or you might not.

Word

[stip]

well my post was utterly pointless given the next two pages

[stip]

Most Vitalogy "haters" left before there were internet message boards to post on. That's one reason why it seems so perfect now. The Vitalogy lovers (which include me, it's my favorite album) are the ones who stuck around into the late 90s as the PJ internet message boards got going.

I like the fact that you love Vitalogy as much as I do. But that seems like a strange argument otherwise.

why? We know that this happened, after all? There were precipitous drops in the record sales (which does speak to this, especially in that era) after each record until no code, at which point it seems to stabilize.

Again, you should've read my next reply where I agreed with the elaboration of this post.

yup.

I respond as I read, which is a problem when something gets resolved