I Feel Stupid And Contagious / A Nirvana Thread

[Wendy Carlos's Twin]

Are you guys dense or what?

Again, he wanted moderate mainstream success/fame and to make just enough money to survive at making music, like his idols did.

He didn't get that and that wasn't his plan.

To accuse him of being an ungrateful or hypocritical douche is entirely missing the point.

[Strat]

Are you guys dense or what?

Again, he wanted moderate mainstream success/fame and to make just enough money to survive at making music, like his idols did.

He didn't get that and that wasn't his plan.

To accuse him of being an ungrateful or hypocritical douche is entirely missing the point.

Look, maybe you are a little too close to Kurt so just calm down a bit.

Nobody is calling him a douche or ungrateful. Nobody here actually has a problem with it. But what did Kurt do to pull back ? legit asking. Not judging not being accusatory. Im genuinely asking. What did Kurt do to manage the success and fame? Give credit to pearl jam, they at least stopped doing videos and interviews.

[Kevin Davis]

But what did Kurt do to pull back ? legit asking.

Uhhh...

[Strat]

But what did Kurt do to pull back ? legit asking.

Uhhh...

Well other than of course. though one might argue that made him even more famous and forever enshrined.

[wease]

yeah, she was fucked up but that guy was already a slacker before her. All his girlfriends pay for his stuff and he was just there.

Again, the Buzz Osborne excerpt from a few years ago...i feel kinda like that.

What did Buzz say?

[liebzz]

Are you guys dense or what?

Again, he wanted moderate mainstream success/fame and to make just enough money to survive at making music, like his idols did.

He didn't get that and that wasn't his plan.

To accuse him of being an ungrateful or hypocritical douche is entirely missing the point.

Look, maybe you are a little too close to Kurt so just calm down a bit.

Nobody is calling him a douche or ungrateful. Nobody here actually has a problem with it. But what did Kurt do to pull back ? legit asking. Not judging not being accusatory. Im genuinely asking. What did Kurt do to manage the success and fame? Give credit to pearl jam, they at least stopped doing videos and interviews.

I legit think that Kurt Cobain wanted to be the hugest rock star in the world. This Street cred thing, or wanting to only be as big as a Sonic Youth, was his shtick. Otherwise why would they have promoted In Utero so aggressively- including videos, touring (and playing MTV specific shows), extensive interviews where he plays up his shtick, etc. In late 1993 and early 94 they were 100% out there playing up their fame.

[wease]

Are you guys dense or what?

Again, he wanted moderate mainstream success/fame and to make just enough money to survive at making music, like his idols did.

He didn't get that and that wasn't his plan.

To accuse him of being an ungrateful or hypocritical douche is entirely missing the point.

Look, maybe you are a little too close to Kurt so just calm down a bit.

Nobody is calling him a douche or ungrateful. Nobody here actually has a problem with it. But what did Kurt do to pull back ? legit asking. Not judging not being accusatory. Im genuinely asking. What did Kurt do to manage the success and fame? Give credit to pearl jam, they at least stopped doing videos and interviews.

I legit think that Kurt Cobain wanted to be the hugest rock star in the world. This Street cred thing, or wanting to only be as big as a Sonic Youth, was his shtick. Otherwise why would they have promoted In Utero so aggressively- including videos, touring (and playing MTV specific shows), extensive interviews where he plays up his shtick, etc. In late 1993 and early 94 they were 100% out there playing up their fame.

I’m sure keeping Courtney up wasn’t cheap.

[Kevin Davis]

I legit think that Kurt Cobain wanted to be the hugest rock star in the world. This Street cred thing, or wanting to only be as big as a Sonic Youth, was his shtick. Otherwise why would they have promoted In Utero so aggressively- including videos, touring (and playing MTV specific shows), extensive interviews where he plays up his shtick, etc. In late 1993 and early 94 they were 100% out there playing up their fame.

Sonic Youth did all those things you're describing too; those were just the basic promotional things that rock bands did at that time (and for the most part still do). It's easy to look back a quarter century later and draw the conclusion that everything that Kurt supposedly did to pretend to want to be less famous was secretly a kind of reverse-psychology of sorts to make himself more famous, especially when you're looking at him in comparison to his most famous peers who really did do some atypical, unprecedented things to step away from the limelight. But it seems like it would be pretty difficult to meaningfully substantiate any of that.

I obviously didn't know the guy but I think it's probably a pretty safe bet that Kurt was a conflicted person who felt a lot of back-and-forth about what he really wanted. I don't think it's reasonable to look at the actions of a young man in his 20's who struggled with substance abuse, had a lot of other inner demons besides, and was blindsided by an enormous amount of fame at a very young age and assume that those actions always 100% reflected his intentions or wishes, or to assume that someone like that would have even had the slightest idea where to begin in order to scale back to the "proper" level of stardom. And lest you point to Pearl Jam as an example, realize that when Kurt checked out in April '94, Pearl Jam was still huge -- nothing in the world at that point suggested that Pearl Jam scaling back on press, videos, etc. produced anything resembling the fanbase-culling it was intended to.

[liebzz]

Mostly I think it’s unfair that Kurt Cobain is placed on some special pedestal that he was an uncompromising archetype of a civic rock star without any sense of being able to question it while other rock stars get branded negatively for following their own path. There’s no reason for that one guy to be unimpeachable as juxtaposed again other similarly situated rock stars.

Again, I actually like Nirvana and was a huge fan as a teenager, and get that he did have a host of problems that exacerbated his issues and probably made it look even more so like he was playing from both sides of this, but all the same he was no god for the antiestablishment in us all. And it’s irritating that he’s projected as such when he played the game as much, if not more, than his peers, be they Pearl Jam or Soundgarden or any of those other bands.

This also probably is my fault too, as I often impulsively dismiss or knock at something that’s treated as unimpeachable. It’s why there’s a small part of me that will be annoyed when some form of mainstream media will extoll the virtues of Ten next year when it hits 30 years but will ignore No Code being 25. I get that tens of millions of people connected with Ten, but I’ll reflexively still want No Code to get it’s due since that is probably more of the album that concentrated the fan base into probably obsessive and no longer cares. Sorry Kurt.

[Jorge]

But what did Kurt do to pull back ? legit asking.

Uhhh...

Good exchange

[VinylGuy]

yeah, she was fucked up but that guy was already a slacker before her. All his girlfriends pay for his stuff and he was just there.

Again, the Buzz Osborne excerpt from a few years ago...i feel kinda like that.

What did Buzz say?

Basically, that he was a liar. A lot of stuff he said was just stuff he made up to look cool and fuck with people.

[warehouse]

I legit think that Kurt Cobain wanted to be the hugest rock star in the world. This Street cred thing, or wanting to only be as big as a Sonic Youth, was his shtick. Otherwise why would they have promoted In Utero so aggressively- including videos, touring (and playing MTV specific shows), extensive interviews where he plays up his shtick, etc. In late 1993 and early 94 they were 100% out there playing up their fame.

Sonic Youth did all those things you're describing too; those were just the basic promotional things that rock bands did at that time (and for the most part still do). It's easy to look back a quarter century later and draw the conclusion that everything that Kurt supposedly did to pretend to want to be less famous was secretly a kind of reverse-psychology of sorts to make himself more famous, especially when you're looking at him in comparison to his most famous peers who really did do some atypical, unprecedented things to step away from the limelight. But it seems like it would be pretty difficult to meaningfully substantiate any of that.

I obviously didn't know the guy but I think it's probably a pretty safe bet that Kurt was a conflicted person who felt a lot of back-and-forth about what he really wanted. I don't think it's reasonable to look at the actions of a young man in his 20's who struggled with substance abuse, had a lot of other inner demons besides, and was blindsided by an enormous amount of fame at a very young age and assume that those actions always 100% reflected his intentions or wishes, or to assume that someone like that would have even had the slightest idea where to begin in order to scale back to the "proper" level of stardom. And lest you point to Pearl Jam as an example, realize that when Kurt checked out in April '94, Pearl Jam was still huge -- nothing in the world at that point suggested that Pearl Jam scaling back on press, videos, etc. produced anything resembling the fanbase-culling it was intended to.

i dont think this is a new thing. people have been calling kurt cobain out as long as i can remember. yes, its easier now being so far removed from the tragedy, but its not a new thing.

pearl jam was huge in 1994 because they wrote great music. at that point they stopped making videos and refused to release "black" as a single after being told to by record execs. those are things nirvana never did. they always played the game, and then complained about it. it would have been great if they took the pearl jam route, who knows what would have happened.

[Birds in Hell]

yeah, she was fucked up but that guy was already a slacker before her. All his girlfriends pay for his stuff and he was just there.

Again, the Buzz Osborne excerpt from a few years ago...i feel kinda like that.

What did Buzz say?

Basically, that he was a liar. A lot of stuff he said was just stuff he made up to look cool and fuck with people.

I'm not sure that's an accurate characterisation of Buzz's comments, if we're talking about his views on Brett Morgan's Montage of Heck.

The original link to that piece looks to have disappeared, but a cached version is still available.

He does say Kurt was a "master of jerking your chain", but that's specifically in reference to the filmmakers presenting the "“I tried to fuck a fat retard” story" as fact, when Buzz insists the anecdote (which wasn't something Kurt shared publicly while alive in any event) was 100% fictional.

He's generally very defensive of Kurt, including in the piece. He's stridently critical of his drug use, but I think that's something which is both par for the course with Buzz and also understandable given he feels Kurt's addiction contributed towards his needless death.

[Birds in Hell]

pearl jam was huge in 1994 because they wrote great music. at that point they stopped making videos and refused to release "black" as a single after being told to by record execs. those are things nirvana never did. they always played the game, and then complained about it. it would have been great if they took the pearl jam route, who knows what would have happened.

I think it's probably relevant that Nirvana never had a Kelly Curtis-type manager in their corner to protect them from industry/record company demands, I think Kurt certainly felt a huge amount of pressure to go along with things.

The time between Nirvana's mainstream success and Kurt's death was also incredibly brief. Nevermind hit number one on the Billboard charts in January 1992 and Kurt was dead by April 1994, a period of not much over two years during which their fame accelerated to levels they never expected, Kurt married Courtney Love who shortly thereafter gave birth to their daughter, Kurt's drug use became much more entrenched and serious (fuelled both by increased stressors and his increased income), Kurt and Courtney had to battle to keep custody of Frances, the band still managed to write and record a new album and tour in the US and internationally, etc.

It must've been a total whirlwind and a hell of a lot to deal with for a young guy. The whole thing is very sad.

[tragabigzanda]

[Birds in Hell]

I think it's probably relevant that Nirvana never had a Kelly Curtis-type manager in their corner to protect them from industry/record company demands, I think Kurt certainly felt a huge amount of pressure to go along with things.

And I think this extends beyond the manager. Steve Albini has talked at length how the band was surrounded by sycophantic industry types who wanted to further their careers and never gave a fuck about the people in the band. Pearl Jam had not only Kelly Curtis, but their A&R guy Michael Goldstone was fairly well-regarded I think (he helped found indie music startup Mom & Pop like ten years ago, which very much seemed like a labor of love); plus they developed a strong touring support crew and treated them like family.

This Mudhoney piece in SPIN addresses the contrast between the band's experiences supporting Nirvana and Pearl Jam in 1993/1994:

Uneasy personal interaction had been a part of Nirvana’s DNA from the very beginning, but now the band was a million-dollar industry dependent on a vulnerable, depressed drug addict. Craig Montgomery, who had been mixing Nirvana’s live sound since 1989, was dismissed on the eve of the tour after Cobain heard adverse reports of the band’s recent Saturday Night Live appearance. Paranoia stalked the corridors backstage at the tour’s various convention centers and sports halls, as Nirvana employees feared for their jobs. Mudhoney were completely unprepared for what lay in store.

“It was dark and depressing,” says Lukin. “Jeez, you guys do this every day?! No wonder you don’t like it. Nirvana were the opposite of nirvana. They were quite dull. In fact, I felt we were just annoying them by being there and having a good time. They’d become the opposite of what I thought they’d started out to be.”

The dysfunctional culture of the Nirvana organization was exemplified by a decision to keep the backstage areas alcohol-free—as if Cobain’s problem at this point was booze. No sane person’s first choice as the ideal support band on a dry tour, after much haggling between Bob Whittaker and Nirvana’s management, Mudhoney were permitted beer in their dressing room.

“So Nirvana would come into our room and drink our beer,” says Mark. “Even their fucking manager asked us for a beer! It was absurd.”

In Chicago, where both bands had lots of friends on the guest list, Mudhoney’s dressing room was the place to be. Soon the beer ran out and Phillip Hertz, a former drummer with The Scientists, went to the catering area and took a case of 12 bottles. The reaction was as if Fort Knox had been ram-raided. It took Whittaker three conference calls involving Nirvana’s tour manager and manager to prevent Mudhoney being kicked off the tour.

Having endured seven shows with their “cool” friends, thoughts now turned to the prospect of six shows with their “uncool” counterparts — how uncool was the uncool tour going to be? The auguries weren’t good. If pressure was a numbers game, then Pearl Jam at the end of November 1993 knew its exact coordinates. Propelled by the frenzied mainstream crossover of their debut album, Ten, their new album, Vs, had sold over 950,000 copies during its first week of release in the U.S. alone. But while Nirvana dutifully submitted to the industrial strictures of the music business—the expensive videos, the Rolling Stone front cover—Pearl Jam got militant. They would make no videos, they would give no interviews. And they would take Mudhoney on tour and have fun.

...

For Mudhoney, touring with Pearl Jam was the flipside of their Nirvana experience. Crowds were indifferent to them, but the congenial atmosphere behind the scenes more than compensated.

“Our shows suck,” says Dan. “We have a good time, but the audience don’t wanna see anybody except for Eddie. Fair enough. They didn’t boo us by any means, but they just sit there and politely wait for their Eddie to come out. But that tour was a gas. Pearl Jam’s a band you could look at as a model of how to do things properly in the rock world. They treat people with respect, they surround themselves with straight-up, honest people.”

...

“By the time Mudhoney came on tour with us, every single person on our crew was a friend,” says Ament. “Pearl Jam was an opportunity to do things the way that Mudhoney do it.”

[Anders]

yeah, she was fucked up but that guy was already a slacker before her. All his girlfriends pay for his stuff and he was just there.

Again, the Buzz Osborne excerpt from a few years ago...i feel kinda like that.

What did Buzz say?

Basically, that he was a liar. A lot of stuff he said was just stuff he made up to look cool and fuck with people.

I'm not sure that's an accurate characterisation of Buzz's comments, if we're talking about his views on Brett Morgan's Montage of Heck.

The original link to that piece looks to have disappeared, but a cached version is still available.

He does say Kurt was a "master of jerking your chain", but that's specifically in reference to the filmmakers presenting the "“I tried to fuck a fat retard” story" as fact, when Buzz insists the anecdote (which wasn't something Kurt shared publicly while alive in any event) was 100% fictional.

He's generally very defensive of Kurt, including in the piece. He's stridently critical of his drug use, but I think that's something which is both par for the course with Buzz and also understandable given he feels Kurt's addiction contributed towards his needless death.

I remember this part:

«Kurt also told me there was absolutely nothing wrong with his stomach. He made it up for sympathy and so he could use it as an excuse to stay loaded. Of course he was vomiting — that’s what people on heroin do, they vomit. It’s called - vomiting with a smile on your face.”

[tragabigzanda]

[Birds in Hell]

yeah, she was fucked up but that guy was already a slacker before her. All his girlfriends pay for his stuff and he was just there.

Again, the Buzz Osborne excerpt from a few years ago...i feel kinda like that.

What did Buzz say?

Basically, that he was a liar. A lot of stuff he said was just stuff he made up to look cool and fuck with people.

I'm not sure that's an accurate characterisation of Buzz's comments, if we're talking about his views on Brett Morgan's Montage of Heck.

The original link to that piece looks to have disappeared, but a cached version is still available.

He does say Kurt was a "master of jerking your chain", but that's specifically in reference to the filmmakers presenting the "“I tried to fuck a fat retard” story" as fact, when Buzz insists the anecdote (which wasn't something Kurt shared publicly while alive in any event) was 100% fictional.

He's generally very defensive of Kurt, including in the piece. He's stridently critical of his drug use, but I think that's something which is both par for the course with Buzz and also understandable given he feels Kurt's addiction contributed towards his needless death.

I remember this part:

«Kurt also told me there was absolutely nothing wrong with his stomach. He made it up for sympathy and so he could use it as an excuse to stay loaded. Of course he was vomiting — that’s what people on heroin do, they vomit. It’s called - vomiting with a smile on your face.”

I'm not sure if I buy that part.

I think it's entirely possible that Kurt's medical issues were legitimate, but that he was also an addict who used them as an excuse to cover for his drug use, or that his drug use (and general lifestyle) exacerbated those issues but that his way of dealing with them was to take more drugs.

I'm sure it didn't help his situation that his wife was also a drug addict.

[verb_to_trust]

Whoa, had never heard that he may have been faking the stomach stuff. Troubling.

Always seemed like a classic addict excuse to me