Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism

[Strat]

For B:

https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/files/area/workshop/leo/leo16_fryer.pdf

...for all the eerie similarities between the current spate of police interactions with African Americans and the historical injustices which remain unhealed, the current debate is virtually data free. Understanding the extent to which there are racial differences in police use of force and (if any) whether those differences might be due
to discrimination by police or explained by other factors at the time of the incident is a question of tremendous social importance, and the subject of this paper.

In stark contrast to non-lethal uses of force, we find no racial differences in officer-involved shootings on either the extensive or intensive margins. Using data from Houston, Texas – where we have both officer-involved shootings and a randomly chosen set of potential interactions with police where lethal force may have been justified – we find, in the raw data, that blacks are 23.8 percent less likely to be shot at by police relative to whites. Hispanics are 8.5 percent less likely. Both coefficients are statistically insignificant. Adding controls for civilian demographics, officer demographics, encounter characteristics, type of weapon civilian was carrying, and year fixed effects, the black (resp. Hispanic) coefficient is 0.924 (0.417) (resp. 1.256 (0.595)). These coefficients are remarkably robust across alternative empirical specifications and subsets of the data. Partitioning the data in myriad ways, we find no evidence of racial discrimination in officer-involved shootings. Investigating the intensive margin – the timing of shootings or how many bullets were discharged in the endeavor – there are no detectable racial differences.5

Cops killing innocent black people is a problem because cops killing innocent people of any kind is a problem. But as I said 10 or 15 pages ago police brutality against black people is relatively low on the list of systemic issues black people have faced and continue to face in this country. (That does not mean it's insignificant, though.)

Again, if the only racial problem in this country were rogue racist cops THAT WOULD BE AMAZING. Like if we could boil down the obstacles black people face to "there's a few bad apples out there that abuse their power every once in awhile" we'd be light years ahead of where we sadly are.

Thank you for posting a study. I've seen similar data before and obviously it presents information that is different than the prevailing narrative. I think it misses a huge issue, though, which is the frequency of interactions with police that white people and black people each have. There is a significantly larger police presence in poor black areas, black people are stopped by the police at much higher rates, etc., etc., that can cause those numbers to be misleading. Additionally, if there is much higher likelihood of an innocent black person interacting with the police than innocent white people doing so this could also skew the rates the study cites because a larger number of the interactions with black probably end quickly and uneventfully since they never should have been stopped in the first place. I'm also curious if they controlled for suicide by cop which I understand is more likely to be done by white people than anybody else.

This issue is much bigger than racist police.

BUT THATS BEACUSE BLACK PEOPLE COMMIT MORE CRIME THEY GO WHERE THE CRIME IS

[4/5]

I bet you if we legalize drugs the murder rate overall but especially in poor neighborhoods plummets.

[Strat]

Yes. A removal of the crime/punishment for profit system would likely change the entire layout of our country.

[tree_]

Surely, we have a huge issue with classism. And the war on drugs needs to end. That's worth discussing. And yes, black people happen to be disproportionately poor. And though the legacy of racism has something to do with it, it can't account for all of it. Latinos are also disproportionately poor. They were not subjected to slavery or racism in the same way.

[4/5]

Yes. A removal of the crime/punishment for profit system would likely change the entire layout of our country.

There's so many groups that have a stake in perpetuating mass incarceration that it's difficult for me to imagine victory on this issue. But people turning against police and their unions is a nice first step.

[tree_]

Yes. A removal of the crime/punishment for profit system would likely change the entire layout of our country.

There's so many groups that have a stake in perpetuating mass incarceration that it's difficult for me to imagine victory on this issue. But people turning against police and their unions is a nice first step.

People need police. They should be improved upon, not turned against.

[4/5]

Surely, we have a huge issue with classism. And the war on drugs needs to end. That's worth discussing. And yes, black people happen to be disproportionately poor. And though the legacy of racism has something to do with it, it can't account for all of it. Latinos are also disproportionately poor. They were not subjected to slavery or racism in the same way.

What are other reasons besides the legacy of racism that explain why are black people disproportionately poor?

[Strat]

Yes. A removal of the crime/punishment for profit system would likely change the entire layout of our country.

There's so many groups that have a stake in perpetuating mass incarceration that it's difficult for me to imagine victory on this issue. But people turning against police and their unions is a nice first step.

People need police. They should be improved upon, not turned against.

Talk about all the ways police stop crimes or even tell me of the times that police have come in handy for you.

[tree_]

Surely, we have a huge issue with classism. And the war on drugs needs to end. That's worth discussing. And yes, black people happen to be disproportionately poor. And though the legacy of racism has something to do with it, it can't account for all of it. Latinos are also disproportionately poor. They were not subjected to slavery or racism in the same way.

What are other reasons besides the legacy of racism that explain why are black people disproportionately poor?

I'm just now beginning to think about this, so be patient with me, but can it have something to do with white people having a huge head start? Immigrants with no skills or training, starting from the bottom, surely are in a bad socioeconomic situation. It is hard to work your way up the ladder when you're starting from 0.

[4/5]

Yes. A removal of the crime/punishment for profit system would likely change the entire layout of our country.

There's so many groups that have a stake in perpetuating mass incarceration that it's difficult for me to imagine victory on this issue. But people turning against police and their unions is a nice first step.

People need police. They should be improved upon, not turned against.

I understand how my statement sounded. I mean politically. Since at least the 1960s the police have been on the winning side of a PR battle that has seen more and more public resources spent on policing and policies made that make more things illegal that necessitate more police who need more resources, etc. For the first time in my life it looks like that may be changing. They have been an extremely powerful entrenched interest in making sure that people are fearful and that laws and budgets are made that protect their power. Maybe this shakes that up a little bit.

[tree_]

Yes. A removal of the crime/punishment for profit system would likely change the entire layout of our country.

There's so many groups that have a stake in perpetuating mass incarceration that it's difficult for me to imagine victory on this issue. But people turning against police and their unions is a nice first step.

People need police. They should be improved upon, not turned against.

I understand how my statement sounded. I mean politically. Since at least the 1960s the police have been on the winning side of a PR battle that has seen more and more public resources spent on policing and policies made that make more things illegal that necessitate more police who need more resources, etc. For the first time in my life it looks like that may be changing. They have been an extremely powerful entrenched interest in making sure that people are fearful and that laws and budgets are made that protect their power. Maybe this shakes that up a little bit.

Right on. Unfortunately, I don't see this happening. The movement is passionate, but they're not fighting the correct battles.

[wease]

Cops are not going out there to kill black citizens or anyone. It's extremely rare, but highly sensationalized, so it gives the impression of being a systemic issue. Again, according to the DOJ, in 2015 there were 53,000,000 police contacts and 1,000 deaths. Cops are not a death threat to anyone.

These stats are distinct from the historical use of police violence to control black citizens and the resulting culture of distrust in the police and law enforcement institutions. That is very real and still exists in many places today in the form biased policing and brutality... but the idea that cops are out there murdering black people (or really, anyone) is anecdotal and not backed up by reality.

How do we make sure that this bias & brutality is dealt with if we don't make it known as loudly & clearly as possible? Are we gonna post facts on community forums and stand silently off the side of the road and hold signs up? I don't think that plan will work. It's not sensationalism to the people today who live it. It's about time.

People are putting their outrage in the wrong place. If they truly care for the lives of people and social justice, they should he addressing the actual threat. At the very least, they should be allowed to discuss it openly without being called a racist.

What is the actual threat?

[4/5]

Surely, we have a huge issue with classism. And the war on drugs needs to end. That's worth discussing. And yes, black people happen to be disproportionately poor. And though the legacy of racism has something to do with it, it can't account for all of it. Latinos are also disproportionately poor. They were not subjected to slavery or racism in the same way.

What are other reasons besides the legacy of racism that explain why are black people disproportionately poor?

I'm just now beginning to think about this, so be patient with me, but can it have something to do with white people having a huge head start? Immigrants with no skills or training, starting from the bottom, surely are in a bad socioeconomic situation. It is hard to work your way up the ladder when you're starting from 0.

Of course it has to do with white people having a huge head start! Yay! We agree! Housing policies are probably the number one manifestation of that headstart with ripple effects into everything else like education and crime. I think what I've been saying in this thread is that the head start white people have didn't become fixed in 1964. There have been lots of policies since then that while seemingly race-neutral have put more, not less, distance between white and black people.

[tree_]

Cops are not going out there to kill black citizens or anyone. It's extremely rare, but highly sensationalized, so it gives the impression of being a systemic issue. Again, according to the DOJ, in 2015 there were 53,000,000 police contacts and 1,000 deaths. Cops are not a death threat to anyone.

These stats are distinct from the historical use of police violence to control black citizens and the resulting culture of distrust in the police and law enforcement institutions. That is very real and still exists in many places today in the form biased policing and brutality... but the idea that cops are out there murdering black people (or really, anyone) is anecdotal and not backed up by reality.

How do we make sure that this bias & brutality is dealt with if we don't make it known as loudly & clearly as possible? Are we gonna post facts on community forums and stand silently off the side of the road and hold signs up? I don't think that plan will work. It's not sensationalism to the people today who live it. It's about time.

People are putting their outrage in the wrong place. If they truly care for the lives of people and social justice, they should he addressing the actual threat. At the very least, they should be allowed to discuss it openly without being called a racist.

What is the actual threat?

Crime. Poverty. Poor education. Just a few.

[wease]

Surely, we have a huge issue with classism. And the war on drugs needs to end. That's worth discussing. And yes, black people happen to be disproportionately poor. And though the legacy of racism has something to do with it, it can't account for all of it. Latinos are also disproportionately poor. They were not subjected to slavery or racism in the same way.

No. It's not like our president is building a wall to ensure no more of this minority can get into our country. Or white people threatening to call ICE on a US citizen for standing in line at the 7-11. They're not subjected to racism at all.

[4/5]

Yes. A removal of the crime/punishment for profit system would likely change the entire layout of our country.

There's so many groups that have a stake in perpetuating mass incarceration that it's difficult for me to imagine victory on this issue. But people turning against police and their unions is a nice first step.

People need police. They should be improved upon, not turned against.

I understand how my statement sounded. I mean politically. Since at least the 1960s the police have been on the winning side of a PR battle that has seen more and more public resources spent on policing and policies made that make more things illegal that necessitate more police who need more resources, etc. For the first time in my life it looks like that may be changing. They have been an extremely powerful entrenched interest in making sure that people are fearful and that laws and budgets are made that protect their power. Maybe this shakes that up a little bit.

Right on. Unfortunately, I don't see this happening. The movement is passionate, but they're not fighting the correct battles.

You might be right about this, but I hope not.

[tree_]

Surely, we have a huge issue with classism. And the war on drugs needs to end. That's worth discussing. And yes, black people happen to be disproportionately poor. And though the legacy of racism has something to do with it, it can't account for all of it. Latinos are also disproportionately poor. They were not subjected to slavery or racism in the same way.

No. It's not like our president is building a wall to ensure no more of this minority can get into our country. Or white people threatening to call ICE on a US citizen for standing in line at the 7-11. They're not subjected to racism at all.

Who are you arguing with?

[tree_]

Yes. A removal of the crime/punishment for profit system would likely change the entire layout of our country.

There's so many groups that have a stake in perpetuating mass incarceration that it's difficult for me to imagine victory on this issue. But people turning against police and their unions is a nice first step.

People need police. They should be improved upon, not turned against.

I understand how my statement sounded. I mean politically. Since at least the 1960s the police have been on the winning side of a PR battle that has seen more and more public resources spent on policing and policies made that make more things illegal that necessitate more police who need more resources, etc. For the first time in my life it looks like that may be changing. They have been an extremely powerful entrenched interest in making sure that people are fearful and that laws and budgets are made that protect their power. Maybe this shakes that up a little bit.

Right on. Unfortunately, I don't see this happening. The movement is passionate, but they're not fighting the correct battles.

You might be right about this, but I hope not.

In case you missed, it, the argument John McWhorter makes in this debate that I posted earlier is the movement does more harm than good and he makes many compelling points. People need to face reality in order to win any battles.

[Bi_3]

Cops are not going out there to kill black citizens or anyone. It's extremely rare, but highly sensationalized, so it gives the impression of being a systemic issue. Again, according to the DOJ, in 2015 there were 53,000,000 police contacts and 1,000 deaths. Cops are not a death threat to anyone.

These stats are distinct from the historical use of police violence to control black citizens and the resulting culture of distrust in the police and law enforcement institutions. That is very real and still exists in many places today in the form biased policing and brutality... but the idea that cops are out there murdering black people (or really, anyone) is anecdotal and not backed up by reality.

How do we make sure that this bias & brutality is dealt with if we don't make it known as loudly & clearly as possible? Are we gonna post facts on community forums and stand silently off the side of the road and hold signs up? I don't think that plan will work. It's not sensationalism to the people today who live it. It's about time.

I don't know, but I would start with these two:

1.) Reparations. The average difference in lifetime earnings between white and black people is around $100K, so give each non-immigrant citizen who identifies as black a $10k/year tax credit for ten years in a row. This would make it far more affordable than a multi-trillion chunk at once. For those who aren't old enough to file, the credit starts after their first filing. Have a eligibility cut-off of 12 months after the law passes to cover pregnant women.

2.) Trigger warning: Gentrification. Lead (Pb) is still a major problem for black communities and it's effects are easily measurable. The government should set a goal of the country being lead-free by 2040 through rebuilding and renovating existing residential structures and incentive new businesses to move in.

[tree_]

I don't have a stance on reparations, but I found Coleman Hughes' argument against it compelling:

https://quillette.com/2019/06/20/my-tes ... parations/

Thank you Chairman Cohen, ranking member Johnson, and members of the committee. It’s an honor to testify on a topic as important as this one.

Nothing I’m about to say is meant to minimize the horror and brutality of slavery and Jim Crow. Racism is a bloody stain on this country’s history, and I consider our failure to pay reparations directly to freed slaves after the Civil War to be one of the greatest injustices ever perpetrated by the U.S. government.

But I worry that our desire to fix the past compromises our ability to fix the present. Think about what we’re doing today. We’re spending our time debating a bill that mentions slavery 25 times but incarceration only once, in an era with zero black slaves but nearly a million black prisoners—a bill that doesn’t mention homicide once, at a time when the Center for Disease Control reports homicide as the number one cause of death for young black men. I’m not saying that acknowledging history doesn’t matter. It does. I’m saying there’s a difference between acknowledging history and allowing history to distract us from the problems we face today.

In 2008, the House of Representatives formally apologized for slavery and Jim Crow. In 2009, the Senate did the same. Black people don’t need another apology. We need safer neighborhoods and better schools. We need a less punitive criminal justice system. We need affordable health care. And none of these things can be achieved through reparations for slavery.

Nearly everyone close to me told me not to testify today. They said that even though I’ve only ever voted for Democrats, I’d be perceived as a Republican—and therefore hated by half the country. Others told me that distancing myself from Republicans would end up angering the other half of the country. And the sad truth is that they were both right. That’s how suspicious we’ve become of one another. That’s how divided we are as a nation.

If we were to pay reparations today, we would only divide the country further, making it harder to build the political coalitions required to solve the problems facing black people today; we would insult many black Americans by putting a price on the suffering of their ancestors; and we would turn the relationship between black Americans and white Americans from a coalition into a transaction—from a union between citizens into a lawsuit between plaintiffs and defendants.

What we should do is pay reparations to black Americans who actually grew up under Jim Crow and were directly harmed by second-class citizenship—people like my Grandparents.

But paying reparations to all descendants of slaves is a mistake. Take me for example. I was born three decades after Jim Crow ended into a privileged household in the suburbs. I attend an Ivy League school. Yet I’m also descended from slaves who worked on Thomas Jefferson’s Monticello plantation. So reparations for slavery would allocate federal resources to me but not to an American with the wrong ancestry—even if that person is living paycheck to paycheck and working multiple jobs to support a family. You might call that justice. I call it justice for the dead at the price of justice for the living.

I understand that reparations are about what people are owed, regardless of how well they’re doing. But the people who were owed for slavery are no longer here, and we’re not entitled to collect on their debts. Reparations, by definition, are only given to victims. So the moment you give me reparations, you’ve made me into a victim without my consent. Not just that: you’ve made one-third of black Americans—who consistently poll against reparations—into victims without their consent, and black Americans have fought too long for the right to define themselves to be spoken for in such a condescending manner.

The question is not what America owes me by virtue of my ancestry; the question is what all Americans owe each other by virtue of being citizens of the same nation. And the obligation of citizenship is not transactional. It’s not contingent on ancestry, it never expires, and it can’t be paid off. For all these reasons bill H.R. 40 is a moral and political mistake. Thank you.