stupidmop wrote:I've got nothing against catchy, in fact the only part if LB I like is the chorus. But if you can't hear a difference between these songs and ten/vs I don't know what to tell you. They were catchy without being bland or inane or whatever. And its not just that the songs were agressive or angry or whatever, breath exudes more joyful abandon than any of backspacer, and I find evenflow downright danceable. You strip the vocals off it and its still danceable.
I don't even know how this newer stuff is more commercial like everyone keeps saying, what audience is this rock-lite stuff aimed towards? I don't know anything about charts but if I'm thinking of the most popular rock musicians/ bands right now I've got qotsa, arctic monkeys and like jack while or something.
The difference is predominantly Ed. The songwriting style on the LB rockers is not dissimilar to some of the biggest hits on Ten or Vs. Ed just isn't angsty anymore. That changes the overall mood and feel of the songs. My point is exactly what you said. Evenflow is just as danceable as LTRP or Getaway. What makes it so much better? Young Ed.
I don't find getaway and ltrp danceable at all, I can bop my head and chair shimmy to getaway maybe. I agree that a big difference is ed, I hate a lot if the vocal melodys in parts of these songs, the ltrp chorus, the lb verses, I've been bitching about hippie ed for days now . But even if the songwriting style might be similar but its the execution that matters and that's different, ill be damned if I can remember what the guitars are doing in getaway, your not automatically grabbed by a riff or anything. You take away the vocals from ten and you have pure classic rock , each song is memorable has its own groove etc the music is raw, it sounds like a band playing together, its got souull.
I'm talking pure shit now because we don't have the whole album and don't even have proper quality versions of the songs we do have, all I'm saying is I hear more difference in the new songs and the old songs than just ed.
And this is also bullshit because the problems I have with the new music is nit that it doesnt sound like ten enough. In fact I think eds trying to sound like ten too much, he's way too loud on these songs for my liking.
I was comparing songwriting styles from the rockers on Ten/Vs to the rockers on LB. The musicianship is a separate argument. The songwriting style itself is similar. What Ed does with the lyrics and vocals now is also part of the difference between young and old Ed. I was saying I much prefer this songwriting style which focuses on melody rather than just musicianship. The middle period sacrificed on melody too much for my ears. The rockers in particular rarely did anything for me after Vitalogy for this very reason. Binaural and Riot Act are the most unremarkable albums for me as far as rockers are concerned. They do have some nice ballads.
Also, it would make sense to compare the moody and atmospheric songs on LB to similar ones in their back catalogue. Makes little sense to compare the LB rockers which are the only one's we've hard so far to something like Immortality for depth and moodiness. Let's make that comparison when we hear Infallible, Pendulum and Yellow Moon.
I've personally always been a sucker for Hippy Ed... so that's a big plus when trying to process the lyrics of something like Swallowed Whole. (Yes I know I've just put suck and swallow in the same post about Ed...).
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
stupidmop wrote:I've got nothing against catchy, in fact the only part if LB I like is the chorus. But if you can't hear a difference between these songs and ten/vs I don't know what to tell you. They were catchy without being bland or inane or whatever. And its not just that the songs were agressive or angry or whatever, breath exudes more joyful abandon than any of backspacer, and I find evenflow downright danceable. You strip the vocals off it and its still danceable.
I don't even know how this newer stuff is more commercial like everyone keeps saying, what audience is this rock-lite stuff aimed towards? I don't know anything about charts but if I'm thinking of the most popular rock musicians/ bands right now I've got qotsa, arctic monkeys and like jack while or something.
The difference is predominantly Ed. The songwriting style on the LB rockers is not dissimilar to some of the biggest hits on Ten or Vs. Ed just isn't angsty anymore. That changes the overall mood and feel of the songs. My point is exactly what you said. Evenflow is just as danceable as LTRP or Getaway. What makes it so much better? Young Ed.
I don't find getaway and ltrp danceable at all, I can bop my head and chair shimmy to getaway maybe. I agree that a big difference is ed, I hate a lot if the vocal melodys in parts of these songs, the ltrp chorus, the lb verses, I've been bitching about hippie ed for days now . But even if the songwriting style might be similar but its the execution that matters and that's different, ill be damned if I can remember what the guitars are doing in getaway, your not automatically grabbed by a riff or anything. You take away the vocals from ten and you have pure classic rock , each song is memorable has its own groove etc the music is raw, it sounds like a band playing together, its got souull.
I'm talking pure shit now because we don't have the whole album and don't even have proper quality versions of the songs we do have, all I'm saying is I hear more difference in the new songs and the old songs than just ed.
And this is also bullshit because the problems I have with the new music is nit that it doesnt sound like ten enough. In fact I think eds trying to sound like ten too much, he's way too loud on these songs for my liking.
I was comparing songwriting styles from the rockers on Ten/Vs to the rockers on LB. The musicianship is a separate argument. The songwriting style itself is similar. What Ed does with the lyrics and vocals now is also part of the difference between young and old Ed. I was saying I much prefer this songwriting style which focuses on melody rather than just musicianship. The middle period sacrificed on melody too much for my ears. The rockers in particular rarely did anything for me after Vitalogy for this very reason. Binaural and Riot Act are the most unremarkable albums for me as far as rockers are concerned. They do have some nice ballads.
Also, it would make sense to compare the moody and atmospheric songs on LB to similar ones in their back catalogue. Makes little sense to compare the LB rockers which are the only one's we've hard so far to something like Immortality for depth and moodiness. Let's make that comparison when we hear Infallible, Pendulum and Yellow Moon.
I grew to love the middle period stuff, but when I first heard Binaural the only song I loved was Light Years. Beautiful melody and moving sentiment.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
Juvenal wrote:I couldn't be arsed comparing them to the back catalogue. In the here and now I'm enjoying them, and endlessly bleating that the halycon days were better bores me.
Yeah. I just want them to be good in themselves, and these are.
Exactly
I only care if they are good in themselves, but I think these conversations are interesting nevertheless
I think what people are responding to is that these new songs have *energy*, even (whisper it) *passion*, where during Backspacer, they were trying to argue that more lollipop cheesiness equalled energy and passion, and I didn't buy it. There's a little bit of that here, but the *performance* is so much more engaging and it sounds like they're into it. Add fuller guitars, and my feeling is that they've got what they were trying for right this time.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
stupidmop wrote:I've got nothing against catchy, in fact the only part if LB I like is the chorus. But if you can't hear a difference between these songs and ten/vs I don't know what to tell you. They were catchy without being bland or inane or whatever. And its not just that the songs were agressive or angry or whatever, breath exudes more joyful abandon than any of backspacer, and I find evenflow downright danceable. You strip the vocals off it and its still danceable.
I don't even know how this newer stuff is more commercial like everyone keeps saying, what audience is this rock-lite stuff aimed towards? I don't know anything about charts but if I'm thinking of the most popular rock musicians/ bands right now I've got qotsa, arctic monkeys and like jack while or something.
it's more U2 and REMish, which are influences they started moving towards more aggressively on Backspacer. At least that's what I'm hearing. Even if you're not getting parallels with the songs the sensibility is the same. REM wrote some very dark songs, but there was a janglyness to them that separated them from other mopey/naval gazing acts that would have been their peers. That even if the music is DESCRIBING a burden it shouldn't BE a burden (what the mid period records, especially Riot Act and Binaural, are missing for me). And then later on, an ability to aggressively go after big sentiments without sounding cheesy in the process. Pearl Jam always had the later. It's the former that I think really help categorize the new records. We keep using words like poppy and fun, but I think they miss what is at the heart of these songs.
I love REM and quite a bit of U2. I think songs like Born to Run, with all its triumphal excess, are the heart of what rock music should be (or what I want it to be). The early records came from that place. The mid period records lost it, and the esteem with which they are held really depends on how much you either A: didn't give a shit about it or B: liked what replaced it. The later records recapture that spirit but without the angst and anger and aggression of a young band railing against a world they don't really understand yet.
I miss that. Pearl Jam 1991-1994 was the pinnacle of rock music for me. But it's not coming back because it can't come back. These aren't the same people. They shouldn't be. If they learned nothing over 20 years they would not be worth listening to anyway. But I think these recent songs show some potential to recapture the spirit of Born to Run without the lashing out. And 20 years in I'll take it and be grateful for it
That's the difference I guess, I like all the big ideas/sentiment songs but I think the only reason they work for me is the naivety of youth and the underlying anger. it also depends on what you're calling thier 'born to run' songs, I don't see a lot of those things on vs/vitalogy.
it is already less prominent, but the wild abandon in the last verse of Born to Run, and the fiery aspiration for something better are still there
harmless wrote:I've personally always been a sucker for Hippy Ed... so that's a big plus when trying to process the lyrics of something like Swallowed Whole. (Yes I know I've just put suck and swallow in the same post about Ed...).
I can't tell if I love the song, or dislike it because of how Ed sings some of the verses. Is there even a chorus in this song?? That said, there are enough bits and pieces of the song to make me think I really do enjoy it. Won't be skipping it though..so that's a good sign.
harmless wrote:I've personally always been a sucker for Hippy Ed... so that's a big plus when trying to process the lyrics of something like Swallowed Whole. (Yes I know I've just put suck and swallow in the same post about Ed...).
I can't tell if I love the song, or dislike it because of how Ed sings some of the verses. Is there even a chorus in this song?? That said, there are enough bits and pieces of the song to make me think I really do enjoy it. Won't be skipping it though..so that's a good sign.
There's not really a chorus except for possibly the "Whispered songs inside the wind..." section, just a series of verses rising into a bridge and then a climactic ending. The verses change key once or twice, which sounds really exciting and has the feel of a chorus. All in all it's structurally similar to GSMF, even if it's a totally different song. That song too had verses which changed key, and Ed went from low to high and back again. It's cool and something I don't mind them repeating at all.
Last edited by harmless on Mon September 16, 2013 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
stupidmop wrote:I've got nothing against catchy, in fact the only part if LB I like is the chorus. But if you can't hear a difference between these songs and ten/vs I don't know what to tell you. They were catchy without being bland or inane or whatever. And its not just that the songs were agressive or angry or whatever, breath exudes more joyful abandon than any of backspacer, and I find evenflow downright danceable. You strip the vocals off it and its still danceable.
I don't even know how this newer stuff is more commercial like everyone keeps saying, what audience is this rock-lite stuff aimed towards? I don't know anything about charts but if I'm thinking of the most popular rock musicians/ bands right now I've got qotsa, arctic monkeys and like jack while or something.
The difference is predominantly Ed. The songwriting style on the LB rockers is not dissimilar to some of the biggest hits on Ten or Vs. Ed just isn't angsty anymore. That changes the overall mood and feel of the songs. My point is exactly what you said. Evenflow is just as danceable as LTRP or Getaway. What makes it so much better? Young Ed.
I don't find getaway and ltrp danceable at all, I can bop my head and chair shimmy to getaway maybe. I agree that a big difference is ed, I hate a lot if the vocal melodys in parts of these songs, the ltrp chorus, the lb verses, I've been bitching about hippie ed for days now . But even if the songwriting style might be similar but its the execution that matters and that's different, ill be damned if I can remember what the guitars are doing in getaway, your not automatically grabbed by a riff or anything. You take away the vocals from ten and you have pure classic rock , each song is memorable has its own groove etc the music is raw, it sounds like a band playing together, its got souull.
I'm talking pure shit now because we don't have the whole album and don't even have proper quality versions of the songs we do have, all I'm saying is I hear more difference in the new songs and the old songs than just ed.
And this is also bullshit because the problems I have with the new music is nit that it doesnt sound like ten enough. In fact I think eds trying to sound like ten too much, he's way too loud on these songs for my liking.
I was comparing songwriting styles from the rockers on Ten/Vs to the rockers on LB. The musicianship is a separate argument. The songwriting style itself is similar. What Ed does with the lyrics and vocals now is also part of the difference between young and old Ed. I was saying I much prefer this songwriting style which focuses on melody rather than just musicianship. The middle period sacrificed on melody too much for my ears. The rockers in particular rarely did anything for me after Vitalogy for this very reason. Binaural and Riot Act are the most unremarkable albums for me as far as rockers are concerned. They do have some nice ballads.
Also, it would make sense to compare the moody and atmospheric songs on LB to similar ones in their back catalogue. Makes little sense to compare the LB rockers which are the only one's we've hard so far to something like Immortality for depth and moodiness. Let's make that comparison when we hear Infallible, Pendulum and Yellow Moon.
I get what you mean. I guess it comes down to the fact that I don't like a lot of the melodys we've heard so far. The swallowed whole verse rinds me of a kids tv show and the ltrp chorus one is just bleh. It's good that you do though, I'm hoping there's some tracks left that I really love.
Ultimately a song is how it sounds, more than how it's written. Using the same set of basic chords you can make all sorts of radically different songs. Regardless of how Ed sounds, the actual music on the early rockers express very very different emotions than LTRP or LB or The Fixer or etc. I'm not sure why songwriting itself matters so much when I assume what we mostly hear and react to is the resulting music.
cutuphalfdead wrote:so glad i don't see signatures
Because song craft, if it's conscious enough, can work to achieve those feelings and emotions. You don't just accidentally come up with a song with feeling... not often, anyway.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
One problem I have with Ed and his talk about songwriting at the moment is that he seems to be locked into this idea that a song is either "hard to create" (homework) or "easy to create" (comes to you like a lightning bolt). There are several shades in between, and I wish he was more about writing what he *feels* he needs to write instead of what is on either side of this binary difficulty divide. But hey, it's 2013, maybe he doesn't find *any* song easy to write.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
I'll try to use an example to illustrate what I have been trying to say.
Ten is a great album with great songs and some very good songs. What separates the really great songs from the very good ones, even on the same album, is the melody. Now, I love Why Go and Deep but there is a reason they are not as universally revered as say, Even Flow and Alive. The latter two just have far more memorable and catchy melodies. With all else equal, a great melody really elevates a song and can sometimes even hide weaknesses (Even Flow's lyrics). Not saying that melody is the only thing, but it's a huge thing at least for me.
These current songs, while probably a tier below PJ's best melodies, still have fairly memorable ones and that has me more excited than anything else. Critiques on musicianship and lyrics can be made and I'm sure people can find fault with those. Personally, I prefer these group of 5 rockers/up-tempo songs (including MYM) to those on virtually all the middle period albums. They don't have anything on Ten, Vs or Vitalogy though.
Actually this might be some of Ed's best writing ever, if only melodically. He seems to have found a real hunger to create good melodies since ITW.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
Thejambi wrote:What's the threshold for "middle period"?
It begins at either Vitalogy / No Code and ends at either Binaural / Riot Act.
I think.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
. But even if the songwriting style might be similar but its the execution that matters and that's different, ill be damned if I can remember what the guitars are doing in getaway, your not automatically grabbed by a riff or anything. You take away the vocals from ten and you have pure classic rock , each song is memorable has its own groove etc the music is raw, it sounds like a band playing together, its got souull.
