The Protest Thread

[Strat]

I also hate looting. If that makes you feel better, burt.

[Birds in Hell]

Let's break this down:

---"The boy" was in the wrong because he shouldn't have been carrying a gun."

yes, the boy. that's what he was. A boy. No need for quotes. Why is he in the wrong for carrying a gun? It's perfectly fine for a boy to carry a gun, especially in a situation where a violent mob is wondering around and the police can't or won't respond to calls. And he has every right to be there. You are making the "she deserved it look what she was wearing argument.

--- He drove across state lines with a gun

So? Was it immoral to do this? Would you have been fine with it if he drove from hours away from in-state rather than a few minutes away, but just happens to be across a boundary line? You want to say its illegal, ok, but you can't make the argument that he was morally wrong to do this unless you thing state lines equate to moral tenets.

--- Do you really think he wasn't hoping to shoot someone?

I don't know for sure, but there is plenty of video available for you to watch, and none of it shows a murder crazy madman just itching to murder people. How are you making this assumption?

--- He was in the wrong because killing people is wrong.

This is wrong. In fact, this is incredibly fucked. If a black man is about to be lynched, is he wrong for killing his attackers? Yes, durd, you have a right to defend yourself from attackers, and killing is in fact NOT wrong if its in self defense. It's a moral good to use deadly force against those that attack you. What the fuk is wrong with you?

--- And if the people he killed didn't have guns, then he could have and should have defended himself (which I fully admit he has the right to do) with something other than a gun.

Holy shit, man. So if ten guys attack you, but they're unarmed, you must only fight back with your fists? What is your moral system based on? Manliness? Like, what if its an elderly woman, or a child. Can they use guns? Why does it have to be "an even fight"?

---
Let me continue, but first is anyone else reading this?! Does anyone agree with Durden here?!

I am broadly with Burt on this, with the caveat that I think it's completely incomprehensible to me that authorities (state, city, I'm not sure where the responsibility lies here) are permitting trouble-minded agitators and armed vigilantes to roam the streets with impunity in the first place.

I don't know nearly enough to take a guess as to whether the murder charges against Kyle Rittenhouse will stand up, but I won't be the least bit surprised if they don't. I'm not sure they should, in a broad moral sense. Yes, the kid probably shouldn't have been there, but neither (in my view) should have the other guys. Rittenhouse was clearly being physically threatened and acting in self-defence (in a general, not legal, sense) on each occasion when he fired his weapon.

There are absolutely occasions when it's permissible (both morally and legally) to kill.

(Sorry, I realise the conversation has moved on since I started writing this post.)

[Strat]

You dont have to answer that. I used to have regular dreams about killer clowns from outer space.

What do you think happened here? Please give sources for that where you can.

I have no idea. ANd im not really here to have a serious conversation about it because its pointless.

All i know is angry little white boy wanted to go play army and he made some bad choices and now he is gonna have to pay for it and live with it the rest of his life.

you have no idea? None? Have you watched any of the videos? I don't know why you just default to this ad hominem every single time. As far as I can tell you've never made a real argument in any thread here. You just make angry white boy posts against Trump and clap like a seal when other people actually make good arguments against him. You contribute nothing but snide personal attacks and blind anger.

Don't get me wrong. Saying "I don't know" is a good default position, and one people should take more often, but that's not what you've done here. You've already convicted him in your mind.

He killed someone. Yes.

So, as shown above, you dont give a shit what opinion i put forth. You just dont like me. Thats fine burt, but that is why i dont actually debate anything of substance. I know what i do here. Im fine with it.

[BurtReynolds]

Clearly, Burt isn't gonna listen to anything I have to say. We aren't gonna change each other's minds. So I'll bow out and let him have his thread back.

What are you talking about? I just spent more time than I should have going line by line in your previous post. I very intently listened to you, because what you are saying is so batshit insane.

[Strat]

Clearly, Burt isn't gonna listen to anything I have to say. We aren't gonna change each other's minds. So I'll bow out and let him have his thread back.

What are you talking about? I just spent more time than I should have going line by line in your previous post. I very intently listened to you, because what you are saying is so batshit insane.

Snide comment.

You're so good, burt.

[BurtReynolds]

I also hate looting. If that makes you feel better, burt.

Ok. good we agree. Looting is bad.

[Strat]

I also hate looting. If that makes you feel better, burt.

Ok. good we agree. Looting is bad.

Lets leave our relationship right here then. Ok?

[BurtReynolds]

Clearly, Burt isn't gonna listen to anything I have to say. We aren't gonna change each other's minds. So I'll bow out and let him have his thread back.

What are you talking about? I just spent more time than I should have going line by line in your previous post. I very intently listened to you, because what you are saying is so batshit insane.

Snide comment.

You're so good, burt.

That's not a snide comment. I'm floored that someone actually believes the stuff Durden is saying.

Don't get me wrong again, I make snide comments and ad hominem attacks all the time, I just mix it up with actual arguments and more thought out positions as well.

[BurtReynolds]

You dont have to answer that. I used to have regular dreams about killer clowns from outer space.

What do you think happened here? Please give sources for that where you can.

I have no idea. ANd im not really here to have a serious conversation about it because its pointless.

All i know is angry little white boy wanted to go play army and he made some bad choices and now he is gonna have to pay for it and live with it the rest of his life.

you have no idea? None? Have you watched any of the videos? I don't know why you just default to this ad hominem every single time. As far as I can tell you've never made a real argument in any thread here. You just make angry white boy posts against Trump and clap like a seal when other people actually make good arguments against him. You contribute nothing but snide personal attacks and blind anger.

I find it completely pointless to have discussions with you. I learned that a long fucking time ago. I like reading other peoples opinions. You offer nothing of merit to me. Sorry.

I think the kid is a fucking moron and an asshole for showing up with a gun. Fuck him. Okay? Is that okay of an opinion?

Lol NO! That's not an okay opinion. That's a completely emotional reaction made out of pure tribalism. It's not okay at all, unless you have actual sources to show that he was a bad person.

[BurtReynolds]

Let's break this down:

---"The boy" was in the wrong because he shouldn't have been carrying a gun."

yes, the boy. that's what he was. A boy. No need for quotes. Why is he in the wrong for carrying a gun? It's perfectly fine for a boy to carry a gun, especially in a situation where a violent mob is wondering around and the police can't or won't respond to calls. And he has every right to be there. You are making the "she deserved it look what she was wearing argument.

--- He drove across state lines with a gun

So? Was it immoral to do this? Would you have been fine with it if he drove from hours away from in-state rather than a few minutes away, but just happens to be across a boundary line? You want to say its illegal, ok, but you can't make the argument that he was morally wrong to do this unless you thing state lines equate to moral tenets.

--- Do you really think he wasn't hoping to shoot someone?

I don't know for sure, but there is plenty of video available for you to watch, and none of it shows a murder crazy madman just itching to murder people. How are you making this assumption?

--- He was in the wrong because killing people is wrong.

This is wrong. In fact, this is incredibly fucked. If a black man is about to be lynched, is he wrong for killing his attackers? Yes, durd, you have a right to defend yourself from attackers, and killing is in fact NOT wrong if its in self defense. It's a moral good to use deadly force against those that attack you. What the fuk is wrong with you?

--- And if the people he killed didn't have guns, then he could have and should have defended himself (which I fully admit he has the right to do) with something other than a gun.

Holy shit, man. So if ten guys attack you, but they're unarmed, you must only fight back with your fists? What is your moral system based on? Manliness? Like, what if its an elderly woman, or a child. Can they use guns? Why does it have to be "an even fight"?

---
Let me continue, but first is anyone else reading this?! Does anyone agree with Durden here?!

I am broadly with Burt on this, with the caveat that I think it's completely incomprehensible to me that authorities (state, city, I'm not sure where the responsibility lies here) are permitting trouble-minded agitators and armed vigilantes to roam the streets with impunity in the first place.

I don't know nearly enough to take a guess as to whether the murder charges against Kyle Rittenhouse will stand up, but I won't be the least bit surprised if they don't. I'm not sure they should, in a broad moral sense. Yes, the kid probably shouldn't have been there, but neither (in my view) should have the other guys. Rittenhouse was clearly being physically threatened and acting in self-defence (in a general, not legal, sense) on each occasion when he fired his weapon.

There are absolutely occasions when it's permissible (both morally and legally) to kill.

(Sorry, I realise the conversation has moved on since I started writing this post.)

Of course you are with me on this! The idea that killing someone in self defense is inherently morally wrong or that you must face someone trying to beat you to death only with your bare fists like you're Rocky is an utterly insane and suicidal position to take!

[E.H. Ruddock]

So the kid shouldn't have left policing to authorities, Burt? Because that is what he was doing. And it was stupid. So yes that makes him dumb. How was it smart for a naive 17 year old with no training or experience in hostile situations to go there?

[epilogue]

Burt, i get your views. You have been vocal about it. Its your plea, and if you want to live in this world, ey its on you.

For me, its super sad. A boy with a gun on a riot. Killing people. If the other guy had a gun, also super sad. And i dont believe in killing people as a form of vengeance or justice.

But anway, i know i wont change your views so its fine. Im just posting here.

This wasn't a case of vengeance. Justice is an amorphous term. I'm not talking about that. You misunderstand me.

Do you agree with durden that killing someone in self defense is morally wrong?

Again I amended this.

I also don't think that self defense applies here.

[simple schoolboy]

And I totally see what you mean about murder. I was referring to the legal sense, not the moral sense. And I tend to be more on your side of the argument. I'm not a big fan of "morality" as such. "There's no right and wrong / But I'm sure there's good and bad" kind of thing.

So, I'll take that back. But I still hold that he shouldn't have had a gun. He shouldn't have traveled to a protest to play vigilante with an assault weapon that he (apparently?) wasn't legally allowed to carry. He shouldn't have brandished the gun. He shouldn't have escalated an already shitty situation. He shouldn't have broken curfew (this is bullshit because the curfew was bullshit but technically it's another offense and relevant because it was the very basis for police to arrest protesters). He also shouldn't have fled the state after the shootings.

The notion that he is essentially a martyr who took action because Democrats would not let police do their jobs is a bullshit narrative resting on a racist belief, deeply rooted in American history, that white people must sometimes break the law to enforce it.

Sorry, I hit send on this before I was ready... rather than edit to include the quotes, I'll just say that Slate has an article about this that really sums up how I feel and what it feels like the right is saying. The link is below. Some of the article is already in what I previously posted but without quotes. Again, posted too quickly. I'm trying to cook dinner and do this at the same time.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... house.html

I'll leave it at that.

Clearly, Burt isn't gonna listen to anything I have to say. We aren't gonna change each other's minds. So I'll bow out and let him have his thread back.

Most of the claims in the first paragraph are either in dispute or simply incorrect. Bad start.

Later, this jumped out at me:

Third, you must embrace a definition of self-defense so capacious that it allows a gunman to legally shoot a civilian dead when that civilian is trying to seize a weapon the gunman has used to kill someone.

[Strat]

You dont have to answer that. I used to have regular dreams about killer clowns from outer space.

What do you think happened here? Please give sources for that where you can.

I have no idea. ANd im not really here to have a serious conversation about it because its pointless.

All i know is angry little white boy wanted to go play army and he made some bad choices and now he is gonna have to pay for it and live with it the rest of his life.

you have no idea? None? Have you watched any of the videos? I don't know why you just default to this ad hominem every single time. As far as I can tell you've never made a real argument in any thread here. You just make angry white boy posts against Trump and clap like a seal when other people actually make good arguments against him. You contribute nothing but snide personal attacks and blind anger.

I find it completely pointless to have discussions with you. I learned that a long fucking time ago. I like reading other peoples opinions. You offer nothing of merit to me. Sorry.

I think the kid is a fucking moron and an asshole for showing up with a gun. Fuck him. Okay? Is that okay of an opinion?

Lol NO! That's not an okay opinion. That's a completely emotional reaction made out of pure tribalism. It's not okay at all, unless you have actual sources to show that he was a bad person.

It is an okay opinion even though you dont agree with it. He's a shitty kid for going there and looking for trouble. And he found it. Weird, huh.

[E.H. Ruddock]

I'm not even arguing against the self defense. I'm saying it was wrong to even go there. Taking a gun probably means he had intent to use it

[Strat]

And dont kid yourself Burt. If this kid identified with Antifa you'd be getting extra deadbolts and more guns and spouting off on how Antifa is here to kill us all.

[BurtReynolds]

So the kid shouldn't have left policing to authorities, Burt? Because that is what he was doing. And it was stupid. So yes that makes him dumb. How was it smart for a naive 17 year old with no training or experience in hostile situations to go there?

What authorities? There were none. Yes, you have a right to defend the property of someone (who have nothing to do with the grudge the mob has) against people trying to destroy it, especially in a lawless situation where police aren't available. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. Do you disagree?

Was it smart? I don't know. Maybe. Who cares? Was it MORALLY WRONG? Who said he had no training? He looked pretty well trained to me. The witness guy said he was handling his firearm poorly, earlier, but he handled himself correctly in the vids. He even called the cops right away after a shooting, which is what you are supposed to do.

[BurtReynolds]

And dont kid yourself Burt. If this kid identified with Antifa you'd be getting extra deadbolts and more guns and spouting off on how Antifa is here to kill us all.

sure, man.

[simple schoolboy]

Burt, i get your views. You have been vocal about it. Its your plea, and if you want to live in this world, ey its on you.

For me, its super sad. A boy with a gun on a riot. Killing people. If the other guy had a gun, also super sad. And i dont believe in killing people as a form of vengeance or justice.

But anway, i know i wont change your views so its fine. Im just posting here.

This wasn't a case of vengeance. Justice is an amorphous term. I'm not talking about that. You misunderstand me.

Do you agree with durden that killing someone in self defense is morally wrong?

Again I amended this.

I also don't think that self defense applies here.

Criminal defense twitter seems fairly bullish on a succesful self defense claim.

[BurtReynolds]

Taking a gun probably means he had intent to use it

That is completely insane. No, taking a gun somewhere you think your life might be in danger does not "probably mean he had intent to use it."

And again. Sources. show me something that implies he had intent to use it beyond the fact that he had a gun. Obviously, we can't know what's going on in anyone's head, but we can at least show behavior.

Would you like for me to repost the videos showing the behavior of his initial attacker?