Election 2020

[B]

We had NC's Senate seat wrapped up, and then Call Cunningham sent a bunch of lame texts to a married woman about wanting to hug and kiss her.

[elliseamos]

We had NC's Senate seat wrapped up, and then Call Cunningham sent a bunch of lame texts to a married woman about wanting to hug and kiss her.

Saw that. WTF.

[stip]

Cmon worse than Facebook? Stip feels more secure there?

I don't want VG to feel insulted COVID has created an unrelenting and punishing pace at work - I am basically on a computer, with maybe at 15 minute break, from 8:30-5:30/6 every single day without a second to breath. So I just lost time to post on RM, especially since I mostly like to talk about Pearl Jam and nothing new was happening with the tour cancelling. New song and I showed back up

I'm teaching for the first time in five years, and since I have to sit down and write up lectures and design classes I'm thinking about politics in a more systematic way then I've had to in a while, and writing about it helps me structure my thoughts, and gives me an outlet to say things and talk about them in a way I wouldn't say in a classroom.

I don't use Facebook for much, but I started posting there because I was getting requests from former students to weigh in on things, it's a wider potential audience for interaction, and it moves at more manageable pace then RM. Plus I just wasn't posting on RM at the time so it didn't occur to me to do it here.

[Simple Torture]

We had NC's Senate seat wrapped up, and then Call Cunningham sent a bunch of lame texts to a married woman about wanting to hug and kiss her.

Seriously, if you're going to sext, send some fucking real sexts. This shit was boring as hell.

[stip]

Did Stip ever give an official explanation for why he stopped posting in N&D? I just always assumed public posts on politics had become too sensitive for his work, or something.

I miss his contributions here - they were always interesting and well thought out.

That's why I used to not comment on politics on Facebook, but if you aren't going to speak out against Trump during an election what kind of human being are you? I never posted regularly in N+D. Sometimes I go on binges in N+D, or other bands, or some other forum if something is happening that catches my interest. It's just hard to keep up. I've put up a lot on Facebook, recently - I'm at a long post every day or two.

He likes to spout opinions. Interaction? Not so much.

I like both of those things. That's neither fair, nor true.

Master of the tl,dr

That is

[VinylGuy]

¨also, you people are monsters¨

im glad you are back stip.

[stip]

mostly to talk about Pearl Jam, though I'm here right now because I don't want to start writing my election lecture.

[stip]

These were my posts from the last two days. Both flow from follow up conversations to other posts that I wanted to spend a little more time thinking about:

I started thinking about this in an exchange with a Trump supporter yesterday, and it felt like it maybe warranted its own post. It is about engaging with the fence sitters who recognize that something is wrong, but haven't fully committed to opposing it.
Voting against Trump, and to a very slightly less extent the machine that has enabled him, is in many ways the clearest moral test any of us have faced in our lifetimes. There is practically zero legitimate justification to support this administration, and the price the nation, its people, and its principles have paid is well documented and severe. This is a test of principle, a test of character, and a test of fundamental human decency and moral worth for anyone able to vote (and honestly, the first test is the commitment to vote. If you sit this out you are authoring it as surely as the person supporting Trump. We are long past the point anyone can claim to be a bystanders.). We have not had stakes this high in my lifetime – arguably any of our lifetimes. It is that serious.

But for Democrats, progressives, liberals, and left-leaning people reading this, it is worth reminding ourselves that this moral test costs us nothing. It’s not that we haven’t paid a price for this administration – we all have, whether we realize it or not. It’s that our opposition to Trump aligns our principles and our interests. Opposing Trump requires me to sacrifice nothing. It requires me to compromise on nothing. It requires me to surrender nothing. I will not alienate friends and family with my choice. Joe Biden is far from the candidate I would have preferred, but supporting the candidate who aligns more closely with my views, rather than my ideal candidate, is a natural byproduct of a pluralistic democratic society (and yes, there are absolutely ways to better design that system). There were at least 3 other candidates I strongly preferred to Biden. They had their shot, and they lost. This is business as usual for me, against a background of existential threat.

This is not the case for the conservative/Republican voter being called upon to reject Trump, Trumpism, and the current incarnation of their party. The American citizens we need to do the right thing have to pay a cost. They are being asked to sacrifice their interests for their principles. They are being asked to pay a cost. In some cases a pretty steep one. To preserve democracy we are asking them to support an administration whose policy aims and objectives may stand in opposition to their own. They are being asked to sublimate all the other issues they may care about to preserve the framework that binds the country together. They are being asked to become a minority of a majority, one in which they are not likely to have much of a voice. And there is a tempting alternative. None of us are strangers to compromising our principles to get what we want, even if we hopefully know where to draw the line. We are all occasionally hypocrites simply by virtue of being human.

Resisting that temptation has never been more important. But I think we also need to name and recognize and appreciate the self-reflection, moral character, and patriotism of people who are actually going about putting country above party. That is never easy under optimal circumstances. It is especially hard in these tribal times. But the survival of American democracy depends on their sacrifice. It just requires me to follow my interests.

tl/dr - liberals should recognize that it is easier for them to vote against Trump then the fence sitters we keep asking to turn against him


and today

There are basically only two choices that can be made in this (and every) election cycle. Either you support Donald Trump and our current status quo (there is zero reason to believe anything will change. He has advanced no new platform nor evidenced any conception that he is capable of growth, self-reflection, or change. This is exactly what you will get and all that you will get). Or you can support Joe Biden and his platform, and the probable restoration of some democratic norms. Biden is not my preferred Democratic candidate. His platform is not the platform I would have written. But my choice is Biden or Trump. That is it. Either I am for the continuation of our status quo, or I am against it. Either I look at the world around me and say ‘Yes, I want more of this’ or I say ‘No, I need something different.’

Biden is known quantity. He is not the more radical progressive that Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren would have been (and what we need from a policy perspective). He is not an inherently transformational candidate. We know this because he has a 40 year record of being precisely not that. His is not the Democratic vision I would have authored. So I am not a Biden supporter in that I fundamentally embrace his total policy vision. I want change, not restoration, and he is a candidate of restoration, which is why trying to tie the socialist label – which I think should be proudly embraced - to Biden is absurd. Calling Biden a socialist is like calling me a conservative because my music tastes haven’t changed much since college.
But it doesn’t matter if Biden is the candidate I want. Either I can embrace his vision, or I support more of Trump. And if I reject Biden for Trump I am a Trump supporter, because I have actively authorized more of the same. I say that I want this more than a possible alternative. If you do not vote for Biden, you are a Trump supporter. If you are a Republican who does not like Trump, but votes for him anyway, in all the ways that count, you are a Trump supporter.

You had the option of rejecting Trump and instead chose to empower him.

The same is true for people who are thinking of not voting this election. You may not like either candidate. Neither may inspire you. But if you sit out this election you are looking at the world around you and saying “I am choosing to authorize more of this.” You are a Trump supporter. That the choice in front of you is not the choice you would prefer to make is too bad. Being an adult means making the choices in front of you, not the ones you wanted.

You had the option of rejecting Trump and instead chose to empower him.

And if you are voting for a third party, knowing full well that all a third party in this election is capable of doing is siphoning votes away from Trump or Biden, then you are also making an active choice to continue with our current status quo. You are a Trump supporter. If you were more likely to support Trump than Biden, and you vote for a third party, you are still, by not choosing the other plausible option, helping to empower the status quo. You are still a Trump supporter. You just don’t get a hat.
You had the option of rejecting Trump and instead chose to empower him.

It is frustrating, perhaps, that we only have two choices in front of us. But there is just one office, and one winner, and having a clear choice is not a bad thing. More party options would perhaps change the face of Congress. But in a presidential election it means that the winning candidate would have even less legitimacy, almost certainly throw most elections to Congress (which was honestly one of the original intentions of many of the Founders). And the United States does functionally allow for multiple parties in their presidential process. That’s basically what the primaries are. 10+ major candidates ran for President in 2016. They stood for differing visions of what the Republican party could be – at the time being a Republican was not the monolithic idea it is, in practice, right now. The party had not been completely subsumed by Trump. In 2020 Democrats ran a primary with a completely stacked field of qualified candidates representing a wide array of views. We had multiple parties within the Democratic party. And at the end of that multi-party process Joe Biden was chosen. My candidates had their chance. And they lost.

But regardless of where you fall, in the end there is really only one question this election. Do you look at the world around you and say ‘Yes, I want more of this’? If you vote for Trump, don’t vote, or vote for a third party candidate you are saying ‘Yes, as a citizen I am endorsing our status quo. I am endorsing Trump’s leadership. I am endorsing Trump.’ If you look at the world around you and say ‘No, I want something different’ then the only option in front of you is to vote for Joe Biden.

That in the end is your choice, and you will be forced to make one of them. You are for Trump, or you are against him. There are no other options

tl/dr: not voting, or voting for a third party, is the same thing as voting for Trump

[McParadigm]

Looking at the demo tabs, Trump continues to lose ground with seniors (a trend that’s several months old now). The geography and size of his support continues to give the president no plausible path to reelection.

I really wonder what he could possibly do that would change these figures drastically enough and in enough states to turn that around.

[Orpheus]

That's why I used to not comment on politics on Facebook, but if you aren't going to speak out against Trump during an election what kind of human being are you?

Oh you sweet summer child

[Orpheus]

Stip really did just come in here and say a bunch of y'all are pieces of shit and its honestly fucking hilarious.

[surfndestroy]

tl/dr: not voting, or voting for a third party, is the same thing as voting for Trump

Wrong, asking people to not vote their beliefs is wrong. Demanding that people who don’t agree with either candidate to vote for your candidate is wrong. Making it some moral litmus test is crazy.
As an outsider maybe I should make it a moral litmus test that if you continue to live in the US you fully support the system that created and enabled Trump. Sounds about as fair minded.

[knee tunes]

tl/dr: not voting, or voting for a third party, is the same thing as voting for Trump

Wrong, asking people to not vote their beliefs is wrong. Demanding that people who don’t agree with either candidate to vote for your candidate is wrong. Making it some moral litmus test is crazy.
As an outsider maybe I should make it a moral litmus test that if you continue to live in the US you fully support the system that created and enabled Trump. Sounds about as fair minded.

What stip said is unfortunate . But it's true

[McParadigm]

There aren’t enough purity test or disengaged voters in the entire country to hand him a victory at this point.

[stip]

tl/dr: not voting, or voting for a third party, is the same thing as voting for Trump

Wrong, asking people to not vote their beliefs is wrong. Demanding that people who don’t agree with either candidate to vote for your candidate is wrong. Making it some moral litmus test is crazy.
As an outsider maybe I should make it a moral litmus test that if you continue to live in the US you fully support the system that created and enabled Trump. Sounds about as fair minded.

Actions have consequences - you can privelage your own moral purity but own what you did in the process. I had the chance to support my preferred candidates in the primary. I lost. The choice at this point is trump or not Trump, which is Biden.

[stip]

There aren’t enough purity test or disengaged voters in the entire country to hand him a victory at this point.

No - the risk is enough of a narrowing that challenges to vote counts could throw the election but an outright win is unlikely

[McParadigm]

There aren’t enough purity test or disengaged voters in the entire country to hand him a victory at this point.

No - the risk is enough of a narrowing that challenges to vote counts could throw the election but an outright win is unlikely

I understand, and this has been a concern for me at times. I’m not sure that it is anymore. The scope and the geography of his bad polling aren’t particularly supportive of a victory plan that requires multiple swing state results to be obfuscatable and litigable. He would still have to turn his polling around from the most consistent losing campaign in our lifetimes, which the 2018 midterms suggest represents a years-long standing among the voting public, just to get to the point where he could plausibly achieve that. He’s never shown any interest in or ability to do such a thing...ever....and he’s unlikely to even be in the game for the next month.

My concerns are about the anger and conspiracy theories that will thrive if he passes away, and the accusations of a stolen/unfair election (“I wasn’t even able to campaign for the past month. They held it anyway!”) if he doesn’t.

[stip]

certainly more likely to be impactful in senate races at this point. we are just about at the threshold where i wouldnt be worried about those strategies costing the presidential election. At a certian point the rhetoric is more about spinning the loss, though no less deligitimating for it

[Citizen Dick]

mostly to talk about Pearl Jam, though I'm here right now because I don't want to start writing my election lecture.

Welcome to the board!

[96583UP]

tl/dr: not voting, or voting for a third party, is the same thing as voting for Trump

Wrong, asking people to not vote their beliefs is wrong. Demanding that people who don’t agree with either candidate to vote for your candidate is wrong. Making it some moral litmus test is crazy.
As an outsider maybe I should make it a moral litmus test that if you continue to live in the US you fully support the system that created and enabled Trump. Sounds about as fair minded.

we went through this already with Ralph Nader, and then GWB won the election

everyone should have learned by now

Ed learned

we don't need to make this mistake again

it's a winner-take-all system here

you have to hold your nose and vote for Biden

if you don't, putin wins