Black Lives Matter

[Rob]

I don't know any of the details of the Walter Wallace shooting.

It's bad!

I mean ... I know a LITTLE. Family calls 911 to help their mentally ill son, and the cops show up and shoot him?

There's video but I'm not sure I recommend watching it. The family reportedly called for an ambulance because he was having a mental health crisis. He was carrying a knife. Cops roll up and in less than a minute, I believe?, they've fired at least 10 shots, despite being at least 8-10 feet away from him. Fact-check these details, I might not have the numbers correct but the basic structure is there--no need to shoot, a clear case of excessive force.

The video is literally a few posts up. Clearly justified.

Its possible they made some tactical mistakes prior to the video, like they rolled up too close. At the time of the shooting they were trying to create space between them and the decedent, and he continued to advance. 8-10 feet is nothing. If the shooting was justified, the number of shots fired before the target is incapacitated is irrelevent.

I've heard it claimed that Philly PD got rid of tasers due to budget issues, but haven't seen that confirmed. Ideally in this situation, one cop would have less lethal out while the other provides lethal backup. Might not have helped with someone in this state. Even if tasers or bean bag rounds work to get someone on the ground, they can pretty frequently get right back up again. They only seem to work on people that decide to give up at that moment.

Also, the ambulance is not coming until police secure the scene. In no jurisdiction would EMTs respond to this type of call without police backup. Should we start providing tranquilizer guns to EMTs?

To be clear, we are talking about being able to subdue one mentally ill man. I'm not disputing the words in your post, but at the end of the day, I don't think this fight ends until law enforcement figures out how to end these situations without resorting to killing the person. I thought that was the last resort. We need to see more examples the tactics higher on the list.

[Rob]

Double post

[simple schoolboy]

They just kinda glaze over what you can clearly see happening.

The family trying to stop Walter without getting stabbed and the police having no trouble staying out of reach of the knife?

Call and ambulance and the cops show up and kill you. If the only tool in your toolbox is a cop then every problem is a dead black man.

They managed to arrest him 13 times previously without shooting him. Sounds like some pretty significant aspect of this encounter was different. Suicide by cop is also a thing.

[Mickey]

Probably only have myself to blame for posting in this cesspool. Hope the cops make some "tactical mistakes" the next time you two chuckleheads encounter them!

[verb_to_trust]

They just kinda glaze over what you can clearly see happening.

The family trying to stop Walter without getting stabbed and the police having no trouble staying out of reach of the knife?

Call and ambulance and the cops show up and kill you. If the only tool in your toolbox is a cop then every problem is a dead black man.

You're on a first name basis with Walter?

[simple schoolboy]

Probably only have myself to blame for posting in this cesspool. Hope the cops make some "tactical mistakes" the next time you two chuckleheads encounter them!

That was pure speculation on my part. If there's a longer video on how they approached him initially, I haven't seen it.

If you want to argue that cops need to be getting actively stabbed at in order to shoot, its certainly a position.

[Rob]

How about figuring out how to train the two or more cops on scene to bring someone down without killing them? I realize it’s not gonna work 100% but it’s a good position to start with I think.

[Mickey]

Probably not important but just so you know in 2019 an independent advocacy group found that over 300 Philly cops had made violent racist or homophobic Facebook posts and only 13 of them were fired!

[B]

They just kinda glaze over what you can clearly see happening.

The family trying to stop Walter without getting stabbed and the police having no trouble staying out of reach of the knife?

Call and ambulance and the cops show up and kill you. If the only tool in your toolbox is a cop then every problem is a dead black man.

They managed to arrest him 13 times previously without shooting him. Sounds like some pretty significant aspect of this encounter was different. Suicide by cop is also a thing.

Another argument for redistribution of law enforcement dollars.

[B]

They just kinda glaze over what you can clearly see happening.

The family trying to stop Walter without getting stabbed and the police having no trouble staying out of reach of the knife?

Call and ambulance and the cops show up and kill you. If the only tool in your toolbox is a cop then every problem is a dead black man.

You're on a first name basis with Walter?

Dang. Your won the Internet.

[Bi_3]

How about figuring out how to train the two or more cops on scene to bring someone down without killing them? I realize it’s not gonna work 100% but it’s a good position to start with I think.

You mean like backing away and telling him to drop the knife?

Once an aggressive, armed assailant gets that close, it’s a totally different situation:

[simple schoolboy]

How about figuring out how to train the two or more cops on scene to bring someone down without killing them? I realize it’s not gonna work 100% but it’s a good position to start with I think.

I think most self defense experts would say that if you go hands on with someone with a bladed weapon, you are most likely going to get cut. The best you can hope for (with training) is to redirect the weapon into superficial extremity cuts rather than penetrating stabs to the thorax or neck.

If the officers can stay 100 feet back without anyone else getting put at risk, and give the agitated person time to calm down, that might be the closest we can expect to a good response. That also relies on a level of cooperation from the person in an agitated state and 3rd parties being aware of the situation and staying away. I think this is the best pratice implemented most places - play for time and distance whenever you can in this type of situation. When activists talk about de-escalation training, I think they're envisioning jedi mind tricks or an on-the-street therapy session, when its mundane and certainly not sureproof stuff like above.

Weirdly, the cops had no legal duty to show up, but once they did they now have a responsibility to try to protect bystanders. Having family members milling around makes the above more difficult.

[B]

I know I made contrary statements above, but I'm generally not prone to say that cops shouldn't have shot in the moment. Often in the moment, the situation is so dangerous that they probably should shoot.

I just think cops are excellent at escalating non-violent situations into situations that require gunplay. Probably b/c they're not trained to de-escalate, and they're sent out with guns to resolve non-violent situations.

[Rob]

How about figuring out how to train the two or more cops on scene to bring someone down without killing them? I realize it’s not gonna work 100% but it’s a good position to start with I think.

I think most self defense experts would say that if you go hands on with someone with a bladed weapon, you are most likely going to get cut. The best you can hope for (with training) is to redirect the weapon into superficial extremity cuts rather than penetrating stabs to the thorax or neck.

If the officers can stay 100 feet back without anyone else getting put at risk, and give the agitated person time to calm down, that might be the closest we can expect to a good response. That also relies on a level of cooperation from the person in an agitated state and 3rd parties being aware of the situation and staying away. I think this is the best pratice implemented most places - play for time and distance whenever you can in this type of situation. When activists talk about de-escalation training, I think they're envisioning jedi mind tricks or an on-the-street therapy session, when its mundane and certainly not sureproof stuff like above.

Weirdly, the cops had no legal duty to show up, but once they did they now have a responsibility to try to protect bystanders. Having family members milling around makes the above more difficult.

I don’t believe in Jedi mind tricks. I agree with your suggestion that cops figure out how to give them space. Next step may be non lethal weapons. I have a hard time believing that the brightest minds can’t come up with a protocol. Nothing will be 100% but we keep seeing it go from 0-dead in no time.

And no, BI-3 I don’t think the professional has to do the bare minimum and simply say “drop it” before firing 7 rounds. We should demand better.

[Bi_3]

Watch the vid brah, not what happened and not what I posted. The protocol is clear. person chasing cops while they retreat threatening them with a knife and not listening to orders to put it down...

[Bammer]

Humor me: What’s the fallout when an unarmed mental health professional responds to this call and gets stabbed in the throat?

[96583UP]

this why they need a giant net gun

just fire a giant net at the guy

then he gets stuck in a net

[Bammer]

this why they need a giant net gun

just fire a giant net at the guy

then he gets stuck in a net

Sounds expensive.

The kind of thing you might need funding for.

[96583UP]

this why they need a giant net gun

just fire a giant net at the guy

then he gets stuck in a net

Sounds expensive.

The kind of thing you might need funding for.

then just bring a cast net and throw it at him

[elliseamos]

this why they need a giant net gun

just fire a giant net at the guy

then he gets stuck in a net

Sounds expensive.

The kind of thing you might need funding for.

then just bring a cast net and throw it at him

There is probably training involved to... nevermind just give them all bang-bangs, should work out fine.