Election 2020

[Rob]

Does anyone believe we have unfettered capitalism? If not, what are we countering it with? Are you against that? Call it simply government if you want, but it is the government assuming control of something that (presumably) the private sector can’t or shouldn’t handle.

[Bi_3]

Does anyone believe we have unfettered capitalism? If not, what are we countering it with? Are you against that? Call it simply government if you want, but it is the government assuming control of something that (presumably) the private sector can’t or shouldn’t handle.

Countering it is the wrong term. We have regulated markets, always have had 'em, and I am not sure there is anything that the public sector "can't or shouldn't handle" other the authority to commit violence (cops, soldiers, jailers, etc.) but there are certainly situations where the privtae sector needs a push from the public sector to stimulate a market that otherwise would be too difficult to found (space, medicine, education).

[4/5]

Lot going on here that I don't want to step in but gonna go out on a limb and say that if nothing other than "lived experience" gives you discrete authority on political and economic systems then there's a lot of people whose "lived experience" under capitalism needs to be centered and treated as rational.

It doesn't give them discrete authority, it makes their opposition to "socialism" understandable even if it turns out that most people using that word mean something different.

Sure (and I did not primarily have your posts in mind)--this is fair so long as similar opposition to "capitalism" is also seen as understandable.

That's fair.

Why is it fair that socialism is “government ownership of production” but when the government in a capitalist country does it (like the public services above), it’s not really socialism? Are you defining socialism as Fidel Castro and the Soviet Union? Because they are, and many do. That would render the system unusable (in a political sense) forever despite being the counter to capitalism we currently have.

The definition of socialism I gave you is a traditional definition, not something I just made up. Maybe I'm misreading you, but it almost sounds like you are equating any government action as socialism.

There is a difference between the collective provision of public goods (education, police, fire, water/sewage, roads, canals, defense) and the collective ownership of the means of production. If you want to define everything that isn't anarcho-capitalism as socialism, that's fine I guess we're all different degrees of socialist but even still can't there be good faith disagreement about the proper degree?

[Rob]

Lot going on here that I don't want to step in but gonna go out on a limb and say that if nothing other than "lived experience" gives you discrete authority on political and economic systems then there's a lot of people whose "lived experience" under capitalism needs to be centered and treated as rational.

It doesn't give them discrete authority, it makes their opposition to "socialism" understandable even if it turns out that most people using that word mean something different.

Sure (and I did not primarily have your posts in mind)--this is fair so long as similar opposition to "capitalism" is also seen as understandable.

That's fair.

Why is it fair that socialism is “government ownership of production” but when the government in a capitalist country does it (like the public services above), it’s not really socialism? Are you defining socialism as Fidel Castro and the Soviet Union? Because they are, and many do. That would render the system unusable (in a political sense) forever despite being the counter to capitalism we currently have.

The definition of socialism I gave you is a traditional definition, not something I just made up. Maybe I'm misreading you, but it almost sounds like you are equating any government action as socialism.

There is a difference between the collective provision of public goods (education, police, fire, water/sewage, roads, canals, defense) and the collective ownership of the means of production. If you want to define everything that isn't anarcho-capitalism as socialism, that's fine I guess we're all different degrees of socialist but even still can't there be good faith disagreement about the proper degree?

Good faith disagreement about the degree of socialism we should have is precisely what I think we should have. The people who shout “socialism bad!” are not doing the debate service, in my opinion. Of course sometimes the government has to take something over, because the market or capitalist just can’t do it - like provide health insurance for retired people. It doesn’t make you a socialist to agree with it, but it’s not really making you a capitalist either. Sometimes the government is the answer. Not always the problem, sometimes the solution. Maybe I’m wrong to use the term socialism this way but it’s how I’ve come to see it, and the old way doesn’t seem to hold much value to me, other than telling me what side you’re on.

Edit - by “what side you’re on” I didn’t mean you, 4/5. Just mean some people seem open to other having a different interpretation (like you) and some don’t.

[McParadigm]

(Watching Republicans edge their way towards rejecting the outcome of the election) “So are Democrats socialist socialist? Or just like technically socialist?”

[Rob]

When the younger people steer us away from this stuff, you’ll thank us, McP.

[Rob]

One day. Some day. You’ll see.

[Strat]

The government fucks you. The private sector fucks you.

So now what?

[macphisto]

Build a Killdozer, obviously.

[Dev]

The government fucks you. The private sector fucks you.

So now what?

now the healing begins

[spike]

The government fucks you. The private sector fucks you.

So now what?

[Strat]

The government fucks you. The private sector fucks you.

So now what?

[96583UP]

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'Lawn and Order'

[Strat]

"make america rake again"

oh man.

[knee tunes]

you can get merch now

https://www.fstl1992.com/fstlmerch

'Lawn and Order'

I just logged on to laugh at " make America rake again"

[knee tunes]

The government fucks you. The private sector fucks you.

So now what?

Awesome post strat
Edit: and spike

[Strat]

i can't stop laughing

[LetMeSleep]

i can't stop laughing

[knee tunes]

I ordered 3 stickers

[Strat]

God i really wish there was a t shirt.