Feminism

[Sarah.]

You know when you go to reply to something and then you realise that your time would be much better spent just drinking wine and whacking off to pictures of Benedict Cumberbatch?

BRB.

pretty much

So you have no argument. Enjoy your wine.

So I can't enjoy my wank? SEE?! MISOGYNY.

I'm pretty sure I don't have to argue with you. Because, feminism.

[stip]

from the Wiki:

Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.

See, to me, that strikes me as "equality of the sexes"-ism, but if the consensus labels this feminism, then you can count me in.

It's not even close to "equality of the sexes" until it cares about areas where men or children get the shaft or women are privileged. Things such as life expectancy, child custody, children's right to have and know their father, post secondary rates.

You are right. We better start executing women past a certain age to address that life expectancy issue

[Self]

from the Wiki:

Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.

See, to me, that strikes me as "equality of the sexes"-ism, but if the consensus labels this feminism, then you can count me in.

It's not even close to "equality of the sexes" until it cares about areas where men or children get the shaft or women are privileged. Things such as life expectancy, child custody, children's right to have and know their father, post secondary rates.

You are right. We better start executing women past a certain age to address that life expectancy issue

Hahaa... I don't care where you rank No Code anymore, Stip.

[malice]

I tend to like this guy's blog, but he doesn't post in it very often. anyway - here's a fairly relevant article for this thread.

http://thecurrentconscience.com/blog/20 ... -whatever/

On Women’s Rights: Yeah, Yeah, Blah, Blah, Blah. Whatever.

March 19, 2012

Last week, I was having a conversation with friend, when she made mention of a mutual friend, who has been generally very supportive of my writing about women. She shared with me that he saw my writing and advocacy on behalf of women as an “overreaction,” that I was overly emotional about it and that my views on what women really face in our culture is overblown.
As much as I may be frustrated by my friend’s opinion and angered that he is so dismissive of what women face, as a man, I don’t deal with the same kind of dismissal that women are subject to.
In their case it’s personal.
Women who attempt to address or discuss concerns they have with the men who claim to love them too often get a wave of the hand, and hear “Yeah yeah, women’s rights, it’s important, I know, whatever.”
The men who dismiss these women treat their desire for equality as if it were a hobby or a pet project. But in these moments, men are fundamentally dismissing the women they are speaking with.
While I wish my friend had the chutzpah to actually tell me his opinions himself, I understand, but don’t accept why he thinks my work is an overreaction.
For men to really understand the obstacles women face on an everyday basis, they are going to have to come out of their comfort zone in order to break the seemingly equitable surface between the genders.

Spoiler: show

I’ve written about men and their understanding of what it’s really like to be a woman in our culture before, in a piece entitled “Men Will Never Truly Understand A Day In the Life Of Women. But Shouldn’t We Try?” In the piece, I write about how men will never truly understand what it’s like to be a woman moving about in her day, but that we must make an effort to learn what it’s like in order to better understand what they face, in order to properly combat gender discrimination.
But, I have never really examined why it is that men don’t dig deeper into the gender inequality question.
Why is the discussion about gender inequality such an inconvenient and annoying bore to men, especially socially progressive men who would otherwise advocate on behalf of any other oppressed group or population?
What really frustrates me is my male friends’ willingness to stand up for women only if the situation involves rape or domestic violence–and even then, their support is at best tepid and never pro-active.
I am not discounting the efforts of men who do advocate for women who are facing, or have faced, sexual and physical abuse, but if we think that we’ve done our part to balance the gender scales and can go home after fighting for women on these critical matters, we’re fooling ourselves.
The same progressive male friends who accuse me of overreacting when it comes to advocating for women’s rights or who say things like (in jest…but not really in jest), “Oh god, here we go again” when I try to address an issue related to gender inequality, would not dare accuse me of overreaction if I were writing and talking about issues related to race or sexual orientation.
Why?
Because as much as we live in a racist, homophobic culture, gender inequity is a great equalizer in a way–the hatred for women is universal and knows no race, sexual orientation…or sometimes gender.
Some men seem to believe that gender issues are no longer relevant because most of us are looking at the man/woman balance in terms of statistics, anecdotes, and governmental change.
If we look only at statistics, there is lots of evidence that things are better for women (and lots of evidence that we’re still in the gutter), especially since the women’s movement of the 1960’s and 70’s. For example, the numbers show that in the United States, more women attend college than men. To be exact: 57 percent of women vs. 43 percent of men.
A recent TIME Magazine cover story outlined that over the past twenty years, the percentage of women who make more than their husbands has risen by 14 percent. This article also pointed out that since 1965, men have tripled their weekly domestic contributions. These are all positive numbers, despite both just being a start, but I fear cover stories such as this one will lead to a relaxation about the perception of gender imbalance.
So while we may have made a great deal of progress in those departments and many others, it doesn’t change the fact that women still face a massive amount of discrimination. Despite the recent and very public war on women in America, gender discrimination has been moving deeper and deeper underground, no longer as publicly visible as it was in the past. However, the intensity of that discrimination has not changed at all, it’s just become covert rather than overt.
We may look at the people near us as validation and proof that women no longer face any burdens beyond the big issues, but that’s all circumstantial. A man can point to his wife or sister and note that she is a company executive as proof that women face no glass ceiling in the corporate world. He can point to the fact that at work, he reports to a woman, or in his particular position, there happens to be a female colleague who is paid more than him. And some men will say, “Well my wife (or girlfriend) tells me what to do, she controls everything”
As if that anecdote, if actually true, speaks to the fact that gender discrimination doesn’t really exist.
Finally, and this is the biggest way in which men misjudge gender imbalance: we look at the issue of gender discrimination in terms of governmental change as a justification for pushing women’s issues into the fog. We can point to many laws that balance the gender scales: from equal pay laws to pregnancy discrimination laws. Over the past 30 years, a great deal of progress has indeed been made in the US and other countries. Besides the obvious, these laws are only useful when discrimination is reported and the laws are enforced.
We can’t legislate to protect a woman against many of the nearly invisible issues they face today and have no means of reporting.
We can’t make a law to protect women against horrible emotional abuse, we can’t make a law that requires parents to instill their daughters with a health body image, we can’t force a legislature to pass a law that demands husbands to support their wives during menopause.
While it’s important to look at the gender imbalance issue through these lenses, the most important and most often forgotten way is to see this issue through empathy. Empathy is about understanding, about being aware, about making attempts to feel what another person feels.
Men can selectively use the statistics, the laws, and stories around us to explain away the gender imbalance and deny the subtlety of sexism as a serious issue. But when we work to understand, to empathize, to learn what women face, to ask them how it feels to be a woman…we will soon learn the secret world in which they live in.
It’s not that men are less empathetic than women. It’s just that we are conditioned not to feel comfortable showing empathy. Being empathetic, taking the energy to emerge from our perfectly comfortable reality is an exercise in exhaustion. Obviously heeding the plight of women requires effort and expending of energy. Perhaps it’s just too much work for us.
Our looking at gender issues through governmental, statistical, or anecdotal lenses is just about logistics. So often discrimination, of any form, does not get borne through these means. Rather it’s about what is felt by the individual being discriminated against. And often with gender discrimination, women simply don’t share their feelings of frustration because their claims have been dismissed, “You’re just overreacting. You’re paranoid.”
One shouldn’t equate the empathy I speak of as related to pity or feeling sorry for women. Men aren’t here to save women from themselves, empathy is something that women practice with men everyday…all I’m saying is, it’s time for men to work to provide the same kind of empathy to women that they provide to us.
The question is, do we, as men, have to care about women enough to notice what they are facing, or do we first have to notice what they are dealing with in order to care about their burdens?
It’s hard to say which scenario comes first.
I am reminded of a seminal moment that sparked my own awareness of gender imbalances. I was 21 and out with two women friends at an electronics store. As I explored the DVD section, they were seeking to have their questions answered by a male salesperson. After two minutes, they found me and explained their frustration and demanded to leave.
When I asked my friends why they were frustrated, both of them explained that the salesman (this was a store that didn’t pay commissions to salespeople) was unhelpful, giving only short and clipped responses to their questions.
My friend Mychelle told me, “It’s a woman thing.”
I remarked that I was confused by what she meant.
“He doesn’t want to deal with two women, he hates women.”
To prove their point, they asked me to go up to the man and ask him the same questions they asked him. I did exactly as they suggested and found the man to be helpful and knowledgeable. He could have, seemingly, spent all day with me.
After that moment, I have been witness to many other similar subtle moments of discrimination, only because I was looking at the issue of discrimination through a new lens.
In the case of the salesman, he didn’t say to my friends “I don’t want to help you because you’re women.”
He just detached himself, he filtered their normal and pertinent questions through his conditioning and arrived at a point where he saw them as inconvenient, annoying women who knew nothing. But to him, I was a guy who wanted to learn more and make an informed decision.
These were moments that didn’t hit me over the head like rape or domestic violence, but they were the discriminatory equivalent of a paper cut: annoying, painful, and persistent.
Our underlying fear and hatred of female equality lives, so often, in private. This space of privacy is largely occupied by women and the only way we are going to solve this problem is if we crack the door open and attempt to join them.
So in my case, through the help of my friends, I noticed, and began to care…much more deeply. But then again, I cared enough about my two friends and for women in general, to not tell them that they are overreacting. I cared enough to explore their circumstance with them.
As much as some people want to portray the fight for gender equity/feminism as a niche issue, it’s not. Women and gender inequality refer to a reality in which half the world’s population faces a tremendous burden put upon them at birth.
And for those men who doubt the realities for women that I write about, I guess the question is, do you not believe your mother, your girlfriend, your sister, your wife, your women friends? If not, then you’ve got bigger problems.
I see one central problem as connected with the men who are fundamentally good, but who pretend as if there is no major gender imbalance. These men, like my friend, when asked if women deserve equality, resoundingly respond “yes.” But when they are put in a position to support the women in their lives or when they are put in a place where they can directly react to discrimination, they lack any sort of action or assertion, or worst yet, they only offer dismissal.
These men may see this dismissal as a matter of opinion–almost as if a political issue is being discussed. But in reality, in that moment, they are committing wholesale dismissal of these women. They are failing to show empathy for the unique experience of all women and for the women in their lives, in particular. They are deciding what is valid based on the lens that feels most comfortable to them: one of male comfort and privilege.
But things won’t be too comfortable for long, because as long as we leave half our population behind, things will continue to become more and more uncomfortable for all of us. We don’t need to do anything but turn on the TV to notice that over the past two months, Rome is burning, and that the position many men hold on gender equality is receding, rather than advancing.
So, until the day comes when things change on the gender equality front, it’s our responsibility, as men and human beings to care, and to care enough to ask. And wait and learn from the answer. And god forbid, try to understand what it’s like for the women we claim to love.
And that, my friend, is not an overreaction.
It’s just the right thing to do.

[stip]

For anyone interested in where male hostility to feminism comes from I cannot recommend Susan faludi's Stiffed enough. It is maybe the most insightful book about American culture I have ever read. It is ridiculously insightful and magisterial in scope. It is an incredibly nuanced argument too.

[knee tunes]

I love being able to play the "girl card" sometimes when I want

I wouldn't trade that for the world.


or whatever.

[knee tunes]

from the Wiki:

Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.

See, to me, that strikes me as "equality of the sexes"-ism, but if the consensus labels this feminism, then you can count me in.

It's not even close to "equality of the sexes" until it cares about areas where men or children get the shaft or women are privileged. Things such as life expectancy, child custody, children's right to have and know their father, post secondary rates.

You are right. We better start executing women past a certain age to address that life expectancy issue

also need addressing is the "father walked out, hot damn & good thing for the children the mother stayed" thing

[harmless]

That's a thing?

[simple schoolboy]

Is 'mansplaining' a term used by serious people?

[Sarah.]

Is 'mansplaining' a term used by serious people?

Er, well... Yes and no. I try to avoid it myself but I suppose there's only so many times you can say 'please stop being a condescending, patronising dickhead, thnx'.

[stip]

I've never heard that, but if I did, I bet I would find it as annoying as people who use the word bro or, even worse brah

[harmless]

Mansplaining is perfectly summed up in the "I Got This" meme:

[malice]

Who here considers themselves a feminist? As a follow up question why/why not?

I am a feminist, but I don't know that the word carries the same meaning these days that it did 20-30 years ago. and that's probably a good thing because a lot of the Women's Movement has been successful in its goals that it set out to achieve back in the 70s.
I don't actually know if the shift in women's rights has been a result of only that movement or if it has more to do with how the whole country has changed over the years, since there's a such different perspective these days about equality, how people are discriminated against, and what's now acceptable roles for women and any group of people who have been treated unfairly in the past.

I've read a lot of articles, some books, and talked with other women as well as men about how our roles in society have changed, and one thing I've discovered is women have created a very good support system for younger generations of women to foster confidence in them about what kind of women they want to be, what roles they want to take on in life, and how they want to be perceived by the world. So in that sense, women are doing great, but there's fall out from that too, which seems to include a lot of confusion in men about how this affects their own roles, what this does to their identity as men, and how they should address those feelings.

It's something I didn't think would happen, honestly. and I think it's a perfectly valid reaction that men are having, and one that still needs to be addressed by us as a culture so men and women can both benefit from the evolution of the culture.

I guess my own personal definition of being a feminist is a desire to be judged by the content of my character, the merits of my contributions to the world (if any) and how I interact with people around me, rather than by the sexual organs I was born with or how good looking I might be or not be. (thank you, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. for that. he's one of the very few people of the 20th century who I'd consider a hero, and who effectively changed the world by his actions and his words).

I've been accused before of being a man-hater (and worse! hah) for expressing my intense feelings about women's rights (right here on RM) but this is silly. I hate what I see as an easy fallback position I've seen men sometimes take when dealing with issues of equality, and I fear what effect it might have on younger men in their perceptions of women. the influence of 'group-think' I guess I'd label that.

if it helps any, I also have big issues with how many younger women use explicit display of their sexuality (exclusively) as their calling cards with men, and are fine with being treated accordingly. i think this hurts other women, including myself, by perpetuating (wrong) ideas of women being more object of sexual thoughts/actions than simply being other humans who aren't all that different from men in the first place... and should be treated as such.

so there's still a definite stigma when identifying oneself as a feminist that exists, and I guess that's ok? but I'm a feminist by simple virtue of the fact that everyone should be able to be who they are without fear of recrimination, humiliation, degradation, or punishment otherwise. I think everyone already has our hands full when trying to get through the day, why add to that by attaching additional burdens of how you should 'be' if you're "X"?

Richard Prior had a piece about this in talking about being called a nigger. he got into an argument which escalated to a fight with a white guy. they were about to get to physical blows. hurling insults whatever - and the white guy finally blurts out : you nigger!

Prior said all of the sudden he felt like: oh, man... really? now I gotta be a nigger? that's not fair. before it was just us two men fighting it out on equal ground - now I can't be just another man anymore. now I gotta be a nigger? great.

I just want equal ground...

for everyone.

[Jorge]

Is 'mansplaining' a term used by serious people?

It is an irritating way to describe a real thing. Here's a good piece on it from a few years ago.

[harmless]

I kinda wish I had a word for "mansplaining" as it pertains to disabled people, but it's partly why I quite Facebook. Got into a sticky conversation with someone and my opinion was shouted down to that extent. Maybe "ablesplaining" or something.

[Sarah.]

Is 'mansplaining' a term used by serious people?

It is an irritating way to describe a real thing. Here's a good piece on it from a few years ago.

I liked that. The bit about Freud and writing in the snow made me laugh out loud.

[harmless]

Is 'mansplaining' a term used by serious people?

It is an irritating way to describe a real thing. Here's a good piece on it from a few years ago.

There's a good explanation here: http://www.shakesville.com/2010/01/shaxicon.html

Splaining—[Privilege]splaining is when a person of privilege condescendingly tells an unprivileged person something zie already knows, particularly something about zie's own life and/or identity, e.g. a man mansplaining what it's like to be a woman to a woman. [Privilege]splaining is that delightful mixture of privilege and ignorance that leads to condescending, inaccurate explanations, delivered with the rock-solid conviction of rightness and that slimy certainty that of course [the privileged person] is right, because [zie is the privileged person] in this conversation."

[knee tunes]

Who here considers themselves a feminist? As a follow up question why/why not?

I am a feminist, but I don't know that the word carries the same meaning these days that it did 20-30 years ago. and that's probably a good thing because a lot of the Women's Movement has been successful in its goals that it set out to achieve back in the 70s.
I don't actually know if the shift in women's rights has been a result of only that movement or if it has more to do with how the whole country has changed over the years, since there's a such different perspective these days about equality, how people are discriminated against, and what's now acceptable roles for women and any group of people who have been treated unfairly in the past.

I've read a lot of articles, some books, and talked with other women as well as men about how our roles in society have changed, and one thing I've discovered is women have created a very good support system for younger generations of women to foster confidence in them about what kind of women they want to be, what roles they want to take on in life, and how they want to be perceived by the world. So in that sense, women are doing great, but there's fall out from that too, which seems to include a lot of confusion in men about how this affects their own roles, what this does to their identity as men, and how they should address those feelings.

It's something I didn't think would happen, honestly. and I think it's a perfectly valid reaction that men are having, and one that still needs to be addressed by us as a culture so men and women can both benefit from the evolution of the culture.

I guess my own personal definition of being a feminist is a desire to be judged by the content of my character, the merits of my contributions to the world (if any) and how I interact with people around me, rather than by the sexual organs I was born with or how good looking I might be or not be. (thank you, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. for that. he's one of the very few people of the 20th century who I'd consider a hero, and who effectively changed the world by his actions and his words).

I've been accused before of being a man-hater (and worse! hah) for expressing my intense feelings about women's rights (right here on RM) but this is silly. I hate what I see as an easy fallback position I've seen men sometimes take when dealing with issues of equality, and I fear what effect it might have on younger men in their perceptions of women. the influence of 'group-think' I guess I'd label that.

if it helps any, I also have big issues with how many younger women use explicit display of their sexuality (exclusively) as their calling cards with men, and are fine with being treated accordingly. i think this hurts other women, including myself, by perpetuating (wrong) ideas of women being more object of sexual thoughts/actions than simply being other humans who aren't all that different from men in the first place... and should be treated as such.

so there's still a definite stigma when identifying oneself as a feminist that exists, and I guess that's ok? but I'm a feminist by simple virtue of the fact that everyone should be able to be who they are without fear of recrimination, humiliation, degradation, or punishment otherwise. I think everyone already has our hands full when trying to get through the day, why add to that by attaching additional burdens of how you should 'be' if you're "X"?

Richard Prior had a piece about this in talking about being called a nigger. he got into an argument which escalated to a fight with a white guy. they were about to get to physical blows. hurling insults whatever - and the white guy finally blurts out : you nigger!

Prior said all of the sudden he felt like: oh, man... really? now I gotta be a nigger? that's not fair. before it was just us two men fighting it out on equal ground - now I can't be just another man anymore. now I gotta be a nigger? great.

I just want equal ground...

for everyone.

I like this post.

[stip]

I never really answered the question that I posed, but here is my definition (which is heavily influenced by Susan Faludi's work and, to a lesser extent, John Stuart Mill's).

A feminist is someone who understands and pushes back against the way in which socially constructed and enforced gender identities prevent us from acting in ways that are human. In particular it pushes back against the 'masculine' ideal of dominance, the 'feminine' idea of ornamentation and display, and the socially enervating hyper individualism that, at this point, probably applies to both.

Feminism is about understanding that human beings need to build and nurture and create, and that their own individual identities are enhanced by the richness of the community they are rooted in.

[Green Habit]

I never really answered the question that I posed, but here is my definition (which is heavily influenced by Susan Faludi's work and, to a lesser extent, John Stuart Mill's).

A feminist is someone who understands and pushes back against the way in which socially constructed and enforced gender identities prevent us from acting in ways that are human. In particular it pushes back against the 'masculine' ideal of dominance, the 'feminine' idea of ornamentation and display, and the socially enervating hyper individualism that, at this point, probably applies to both.

Feminism is about understanding that human beings need to build and nurture and create, and that their own individual identities are enhanced by the richness of the community they are rooted in.

I like this definition a lot. I do not like stereotypes of both of the sexes. Still, since this philosophy applies to both, it seems odd to call it feminism.