Thread on Unions....

[broken iris]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/ ... OF20130220

"Keep your so-called workers," U.S. boss tells France

(Reuters) - The CEO of a U.S. tire maker has delivered a crushing summary of how some outsiders view France's work ethic in a letter saying he would have to be stupid to take over a factory whose staff only put in three hours work a day.

Titan International's Maurice Taylor, nicknamed "The Grizz" for his negotiating style, told the left-wing French industry minister in a letter published by media on Wednesday that he had no interest in rescuing a plant set for closure.

"The French workforce gets paid high wages but works only three hours. They get one hour for breaks and lunch, talk for three and work for three," Taylor wrote on February 8 in the letter in English to the minister, Arnaud Montebourg.

"I told this to the French union workers to their faces. They told me that's the French way!" Taylor added in the letter, which was posted by business daily Les Echos on its website and which the ministry confirmed was genuine.

"Titan is going to buy a Chinese tire company or an Indian one, pay less than one Euro per hour wage and ship all the tires France needs," he said. "You can keep the so-called workers."

Socialist President Francois Hollande might take some comfort in Taylor's view of his own country's business policies: "The U.S. government is not much better than the French," he said, referring to a dispute over Chinese exports.

Montebourg's office said the letter was an authentic response to Paris consulting Titan as a possible buyer of U.S. group Goodyear's Amiens Nord factory in northern France.

The minister refrained from an immediate reply: ""Don't worry, there will be a response," Montebourg told reporters on Wednesday after meeting Hollande. "It's better written down."

Union leaders were less cautious. CGT official Mickael Wamen said Taylor belonged more "in an asylum" than the boardroom of a multinational company.

DERISION

Taylor's comments are the latest blow to France's image after verbal attacks last year by Montebourg on firms seeking to shut ailing industrial sites prompted international mockery.

Combined with concerned over plans for a 75 percent "millionaires tax", Montebourg's antics drove London Mayor Boris Johnson to remark to an international business audience that it seemed France was being run by left-wing revolutionaries.

Montebourg has also lashed out at cheap imports of manufactured goods from low-wage countries like China and last year told the boss of Indian steelmaker ArcelorMittal he was unwelcome in a spat over a shuttered plant in France.

Despite having per-head productivity levels that rank among the best in Europe, economists blame France's rigid hiring and firing laws for a long industrial decline that has dented exports. Many also fault the country's 35-hour work week.

Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co's Amiens Nord plant employs 1,250 workers, who have been battling demands that they work more shifts or accept layoffs. The government said in January that the site faced imminent closure.

Talks with Titan over a possible purchase of the plant's farm tire section fell through last September after a failure to reach a deal with the CGT union on voluntary redundancies.

Titan did not return calls on Monday evening for comment, but the company's website says that Wall Street analysts have dubbed Taylor "The Grizz" for his tough negotiating style.

His letter to Montebourg accuses the French government of "doing nothing" in the face of Chinese competition.

"Sir, your letter states that you want Titan to start a discussion. How stupid do you think we are?" he wrote. "Titan is the one with the money and the talent to produce tires. What does the crazy union have? It has the French government."




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So, yeah. Could be setting an interesting precedent here.

[surfndestroy]

I thought that was a pretty disjointed rant and article.

I am 100% against unions in the public sector. Government generally has a monopoly on services, so a union strike deprives citizen of their sole source of that good or service. This pretty much takes away the government's ability to lock them out as well. Citizens have absolutely no option to turn to alternate providers, which is a mechanism that tends to provide quality and value. Both are sorely missed in public sector unions.

I don't care that much about unions one way or another in the private sector other than I refuse to work for one. I think it is wrong that unionizing is pretty much a lifetime contract for that union, regardless of their performance standards. I think at the end of the contract that companies should be 100% free to hire outside the union, subcontract or go with a different union.

[simple schoolboy]

The NLRB, mandatory arbitration and many related requirements tend to stack the deck against employers even in private sector unions. That business over Boeing wanting to shift production was a clear example of unions using government muscle to their benefit.

[simple schoolboy]

It looks like BART will be going on strike again soon. Thank goodness the Americas cup is over so its somewhat likely that my missus can get parking. She will still have to leave the house an hour and a half early, but at least parking is a minor blessing.

Every day I thank these selfless public servants who show up for their jobs which require little more than knowing a guy in the union. All the heart that they put into it, and how they struggle for the little man in their labor talks. Thank goodness for public sector unions.

[stip]

I thought that was a pretty disjointed rant and article.

I am 100% against unions in the public sector. Government generally has a monopoly on services, so a union strike deprives citizen of their sole source of that good or service. This pretty much takes away the government's ability to lock them out as well. Citizens have absolutely no option to turn to alternate providers, which is a mechanism that tends to provide quality and value. Both are sorely missed in public sector unions.

I don't care that much about unions one way or another in the private sector other than I refuse to work for one. I think it is wrong that unionizing is pretty much a lifetime contract for that union, regardless of their performance standards. I think at the end of the contract that companies should be 100% free to hire outside the union, subcontract or go with a different union.

How do public sector workers protect their rights without collective bargaining?

[stip]

The NLRB, mandatory arbitration and many related requirements tend to stack the deck against employers even in private sector unions. That business over Boeing wanting to shift production was a clear example of unions using government muscle to their benefit.

Employers will just have to make use of the everything else in the government, plus their control over employment, to somehow push back against the awesome might of unions

[simple schoolboy]

I thought that was a pretty disjointed rant and article.

I am 100% against unions in the public sector. Government generally has a monopoly on services, so a union strike deprives citizen of their sole source of that good or service. This pretty much takes away the government's ability to lock them out as well. Citizens have absolutely no option to turn to alternate providers, which is a mechanism that tends to provide quality and value. Both are sorely missed in public sector unions.

I don't care that much about unions one way or another in the private sector other than I refuse to work for one. I think it is wrong that unionizing is pretty much a lifetime contract for that union, regardless of their performance standards. I think at the end of the contract that companies should be 100% free to hire outside the union, subcontract or go with a different union.

How do public sector workers protect their rights without collective bargaining?

Having a contractual monopoly on labor, perchance? Or, maybe make it impossible to replace them during labor disputes. See:BART

[stip]

I thought that was a pretty disjointed rant and article.

I am 100% against unions in the public sector. Government generally has a monopoly on services, so a union strike deprives citizen of their sole source of that good or service. This pretty much takes away the government's ability to lock them out as well. Citizens have absolutely no option to turn to alternate providers, which is a mechanism that tends to provide quality and value. Both are sorely missed in public sector unions.

I don't care that much about unions one way or another in the private sector other than I refuse to work for one. I think it is wrong that unionizing is pretty much a lifetime contract for that union, regardless of their performance standards. I think at the end of the contract that companies should be 100% free to hire outside the union, subcontract or go with a different union.

How do public sector workers protect their rights without collective bargaining?

Having a contractual monopoly on labor, perchance? Or, maybe make it impossible to replace them during labor disputes. See:BART

yes. my question is how do workers protect themselves and their interests without a union?

[---]

.

[Green Habit]

Sometimes I wish I had chosen a profession where unionization was more common, just for kicks.

[surfndestroy]

I thought that was a pretty disjointed rant and article.

I am 100% against unions in the public sector. Government generally has a monopoly on services, so a union strike deprives citizen of their sole source of that good or service. This pretty much takes away the government's ability to lock them out as well. Citizens have absolutely no option to turn to alternate providers, which is a mechanism that tends to provide quality and value. Both are sorely missed in public sector unions.

I don't care that much about unions one way or another in the private sector other than I refuse to work for one. I think it is wrong that unionizing is pretty much a lifetime contract for that union, regardless of their performance standards. I think at the end of the contract that companies should be 100% free to hire outside the union, subcontract or go with a different union.

How do public sector workers protect their rights without collective bargaining?

Having a contractual monopoly on labor, perchance? Or, maybe make it impossible to replace them during labor disputes. See:BART

yes. my question is how do workers protect themselves and their interests without a union?

Non-unionized public sector employees have the exact same protection that non-union private employees have. They can protect their interests by have a valuable skill set, provide value for what they are being paid and do their job well.

[stip]

So, for the most part, none?

[Electromatic]

Protect themselves against what?

[stip]

exploitation

[surfndestroy]

So, for the most part, none?

I'm not sure if your belief that public sector workers can't add value says more about you or the workers.

[stip]

Oh sure they can. I just don't think that's enough. I don't think the public that ultimately controls the purse strings is in a good position to measure that. Which is a separate problem from the exploitation concern, I suppose. Public sector unions are certainly a grayer area for me than private sector unions.

In the end bargaining power is so absurdly asymmetrical for all but the most skilled workers that unions are a necessity. And the collective nature of unions offers the surest checks we have against workers being exploited, management fucking them over, and, more broadly, one of the stronger checks we have for pushing back against inequality, outsourcing, etc.

[Electromatic]

exploitation

How are BART workers being exploited?

[stip]

I have no idea what that particular strike is over.

I think a lot of hostility towards unions reflects how increasingly difficult life has gotten for American workers, and since unionized workers are (shockingly) better able to respond to it they breed a lot of resentment towards individual workers who don't. Employees have not been a significant stakeholder in the American workplace in a long time, and the last several decades have shown us the consequences of that.

[Electromatic]

I have no idea what that particular strike is over.

I think a lot of hostility towards unions reflects how increasingly difficult life has gotten for American workers, and since unionized workers are (shockingly) better able to respond to it they breed a lot of resentment towards individual workers who don't. Employees have not been a significant stakeholder in the American workplace in a long time, and the last several decades have shown us the consequences of that.

My opposition is mainly the problem of legacy costs which are pretty much destroying public and private sector budgets and abilities to do anything.

[stip]

Perhaps, but so are billions of dollars in frivolous tax breaks and corporate welfare. If you address one address the other.