How The West Was Won And Where It Got Us: An REM Thread

[joostone]

This is an interesting website: www.besteveralbums.com
It combines all the 'year lists' or 'best albums ever' lists from all available sources, they just add up.
Therefore its the best 'best album ever' list around. The most democratic.

Interesting to see who have the most albums in the list:


1- The Beatles 13
2- Bob Dylan 12
3- David Bowie 10
4- Pink Floyd 10
5- U2 10
6- R.E.M. 9

Now it's proven...REM is the sixth greatest band of all time . But it's my hope that they will climb and pass U2 and Floyd....

[stip]

This is an interesting website: http://www.besteveralbums.com
It combines all the 'year lists' or 'best albums ever' lists from all available sources, they just add up.
Therefore its the best 'best album ever' list around. The most democratic.

Interesting to see who have the most albums in the list:


1- The Beatles 13
2- Bob Dylan 12
3- David Bowie 10
4- Pink Floyd 10
5- U2 10
6- R.E.M. 9

Now it's proven...REM is the sixth greatest band of all time . But it's my hope that they will climb and pass U2 and Floyd....

And, more importantly for the purposes of this thread, they are the top American band!

[bada]

I don't think pitting number of great/good/okay/bad records against each other and then doing the math is how I'd assess something like this. Nirvana represented and defined a moment in time, which is no small feat, but I couldn't argue for them as the greatest American band of all-time any more than I could argue for the Sex Pistols as the greatest English band of all-time (stiffer competition over there, but still). While we got a few more albums out of Nirvana than we did out of the Pistols, I would still maintain that what we got to see of their growth as a band, and of Kurt as a songwriter, while impressive for the small amount of time it represented, simply wasn't substantive enough to put their body of work up against a group like REM's. If they win the title for Greatest American Band Ever, their victory comes with an asterisk. Stip is right; a lot of bands have two great records. In this conversation, longevity absolutely matters.

REM was around for 28 years and successfully weathered three distinct eras of career: their indie years on IRS, their Bill Berry years on Warner Bros., and their post-Berry years. During each era they were thrown curveballs that, despite which records you feel are their best, it's difficult to deny they handled with class and without ever sacrificing their artistic or personal principles. During those 28 years they demonstrated remarkable artistic growth without ever really violating the parameters of what they inherently were, even when what they inherently were literally became something different. Only in the very end did they look backwards instead of forwards, but now that we're able to see those as their last records, that look backwards has a different meaning--not a retreading of steps done in the name of self-doubt, but rather a final about-face at the end of the run, more like a marathon sprinter crossing the finish line and then turning around and see for the first time just how much ground he's covered. No other band mentioned so far in this thread has seen its career through to fruition this way, and no other band's body of work therefore feels anywhere near as complete. Nirvana shares this, but I also wouldn't underestimate their credibility in both mainstream and underground circles. A good way to measure true greatness is to look at bands that nobody can deny, and rarely do you find people denying REM.

For pretty significantly different reasons, I would say the only other band that I would feel comfortable including in this conversation would be the Grateful Dead (barring Aerosmith of course, but that had more to do with that sticker than anything else). Maybe Sonic Youth, though I wonder if they're just a little too far out there. Someday, maybe Wilco. I like the idea of including Pearl Jam but I think they're moving in the wrong direction.

I'd give The Doors serious consideration. I know that will get some eye rolls cause Morrison is so polarizing but if you are talking about a true band where all four members are integral to it's success and who still has a huge radio presence 40 years later they have to be in the discussion. I have no stats to back this up but I would think you'd be more likely to hear a Doors song on the radio than any of the other great American bands we are discussing. Not the same 3 or 4 songs but any 1 of 20-25 songs. Granted we have like 5 classic rock stations in CT so my experience might be skewed.

[stip]

I think they'd be a serious contendet

[oasisfan35]

I don't think pitting number of great/good/okay/bad records against each other and then doing the math is how I'd assess something like this. Nirvana represented and defined a moment in time, which is no small feat, but I couldn't argue for them as the greatest American band of all-time any more than I could argue for the Sex Pistols as the greatest English band of all-time (stiffer competition over there, but still). While we got a few more albums out of Nirvana than we did out of the Pistols, I would still maintain that what we got to see of their growth as a band, and of Kurt as a songwriter, while impressive for the small amount of time it represented, simply wasn't substantive enough to put their body of work up against a group like REM's. If they win the title for Greatest American Band Ever, their victory comes with an asterisk. Stip is right; a lot of bands have two great records. In this conversation, longevity absolutely matters.

REM was around for 28 years and successfully weathered three distinct eras of career: their indie years on IRS, their Bill Berry years on Warner Bros., and their post-Berry years. During each era they were thrown curveballs that, despite which records you feel are their best, it's difficult to deny they handled with class and without ever sacrificing their artistic or personal principles. During those 28 years they demonstrated remarkable artistic growth without ever really violating the parameters of what they inherently were, even when what they inherently were literally became something different. Only in the very end did they look backwards instead of forwards, but now that we're able to see those as their last records, that look backwards has a different meaning--not a retreading of steps done in the name of self-doubt, but rather a final about-face at the end of the run, more like a marathon sprinter crossing the finish line and then turning around and see for the first time just how much ground he's covered. No other band mentioned so far in this thread has seen its career through to fruition this way, and no other band's body of work therefore feels anywhere near as complete. Nirvana shares this, but I also wouldn't underestimate their credibility in both mainstream and underground circles. A good way to measure true greatness is to look at bands that nobody can deny, and rarely do you find people denying REM.

For pretty significantly different reasons, I would say the only other band that I would feel comfortable including in this conversation would be the Grateful Dead (barring Aerosmith of course, but that had more to do with that sticker than anything else). Maybe Sonic Youth, though I wonder if they're just a little too far out there. Someday, maybe Wilco. I like the idea of including Pearl Jam but I think they're moving in the wrong direction.

I'd give The Doors serious consideration. I know that will get some eye rolls cause Morrison is so polarizing but if you are talking about a true band where all four members are integral to it's success and who still has a huge radio presence 40 years later they have to be in the discussion. I have no stats to back this up but I would think you'd be more likely to hear a Doors song on the radio than any of the other great American bands we are discussing. Not the same 3 or 4 songs but any 1 of 20-25 songs. Granted we have like 5 classic rock stations in CT so my experience might be skewed.

The Doors have been very popular on CT radio for as long as I can remember but they do certainly run through a majority of their Greatest Hits discs.

I now listen to a radio station out of Long Island.

[epilogue]

Aerosmith, The Doors, The Grateful Dead, Talking Heads -- these are all bands that I should have mentioned initially. While I would absolutely rank REM above Aerosmith, personally, I think an argument could be made in Aerosmith's favor on a grand scale. I'd also rank REM above The Grateful Dead. But I'd put them below The Doors and Talking Heads.

[epilogue]

I don't think pitting number of great/good/okay/bad records against each other and then doing the math is how I'd assess something like this. Nirvana represented and defined a moment in time, which is no small feat, but I couldn't argue for them as the greatest American band of all-time any more than I could argue for the Sex Pistols as the greatest English band of all-time (stiffer competition over there, but still). While we got a few more albums out of Nirvana than we did out of the Pistols, I would still maintain that what we got to see of their growth as a band, and of Kurt as a songwriter, while impressive for the small amount of time it represented, simply wasn't substantive enough to put their body of work up against a group like REM's. If they win the title for Greatest American Band Ever, their victory comes with an asterisk. Stip is right; a lot of bands have two great records. In this conversation, longevity absolutely matters.

REM was around for 28 years and successfully weathered three distinct eras of career: their indie years on IRS, their Bill Berry years on Warner Bros., and their post-Berry years. During each era they were thrown curveballs that, despite which records you feel are their best, it's difficult to deny they handled with class and without ever sacrificing their artistic or personal principles. During those 28 years they demonstrated remarkable artistic growth without ever really violating the parameters of what they inherently were, even when what they inherently were literally became something different. Only in the very end did they look backwards instead of forwards, but now that we're able to see those as their last records, that look backwards has a different meaning--not a retreading of steps done in the name of self-doubt, but rather a final about-face at the end of the run, more like a marathon sprinter crossing the finish line and then turning around and see for the first time just how much ground he's covered. No other band mentioned so far in this thread has seen its career through to fruition this way, and no other band's body of work therefore feels anywhere near as complete. Nirvana shares this, but I also wouldn't underestimate their credibility in both mainstream and underground circles. A good way to measure true greatness is to look at bands that nobody can deny, and rarely do you find people denying REM.

For pretty significantly different reasons, I would say the only other band that I would feel comfortable including in this conversation would be the Grateful Dead (barring Aerosmith of course, but that had more to do with that sticker than anything else). Maybe Sonic Youth, though I wonder if they're just a little too far out there. Someday, maybe Wilco. I like the idea of including Pearl Jam but I think they're moving in the wrong direction.

Longevity is certainly a factor. But it shouldn't outweigh respective bodies of work. And I think an argument can be made that Nirvana did more (and did it better) with their limited output. So I won't hang the argument on longevity alone, but it is important in the conversation.

And, again, it all comes down to preference. I'll never begrudge someone for calling REM the greatest. It's a valid point of view. I just happen to disagree. Just like you happen to think Pearl Jam doesn't belong because you personally don't like the direction they are taking their career. You prefer the way REM navigated their own. I rather disagree. And I'm sure we both have folks on each of our teams.

But I can't speak for everyone, I can only speak for myself. If we came up with a set of criteria it might be easier to argue each point. But, as it stands, I'd put REM in the top 10 for sure. Top 5 maybe. But not #1.

[bada]

I'd put The Allman Brothers Band above the Dead. Beach Boys too.

[epilogue]

I'd put The Allman Brothers Band above the Dead. Beach Boys too.

Fuck! Yes, The Allman Brothers and Beach Boys!! I'm an asshole. Not sure how I left those guys out of the discussion thus far. Good call, bada.

[bada]

I'd put The Allman Brothers Band above the Dead. Beach Boys too.

Fuck! Yes, The Allman Brothers and Beach Boys!! I'm an asshole. Not sure how I left those guys out of the discussion thus far. Good call, bada.

Creedence Clearwater Revival!!!

[Norah]

Kevin Davis for the win.

[VinylGuy]

i think another item you guy have to think about its the importance of the band worlwide. The Allman Brothers didnt get the same attention than the doors, nirvana or rem outside the us. The same with the beach boys.
REM influenced a lot of bands, not only peers from their time, but also younger bands from overseas.

[Kevin Davis]

I'd put The Allman Brothers Band above the Dead.

Really? Why?

[stip]

Alphabetical order.

[bada]

I'd put The Allman Brothers Band above the Dead.

Really? Why?

I don't trust hippies....

Alphabetical order.

.....and this.....

[Norah]

[Norah]

I mean, I know we've all seen it. But

[stip]

this song may have my favorite opening lyric of all time

[Blaine Ryan]

That may very well be the best R.E.M. song. Which is saying something.

[numbers]

Dude! I watched that yesterday too without even looking at this thread. First time I'd ever seen it, it's just amazing.