The Homelessness Crisis

[tragabigzanda]

FUCK ICE

[Bammer]

Without reading this yet, pulling in doug’s shave odyssey is a bit of a stretch

Maybe you’ll tie it together.

[simple schoolboy]

Relocating bammer's anecdote about helping a homeless guy find a job, and the most pertinent discussion that followed:

Spoiler: show

I met a homeless guy and now I’m trying to help him find a job. That’s 100% a true story

Bammer your heart’s in the right place but this job market suggests if he wanted a job he could find one.

you are making so many assumptions here it’s crazy

I talked to him for about 10 minutes. Not like I got the guy’s entire life story but he says that not having a home address to give when filling out an online job application has been a particularly difficult hurdle.

Honest question: do places like McD’s care about that?

I’ve never been homeless so am open to being so wrong here. But I admit that when I see a guy standing outside Home Depot with a sign that says he can’t find a job and needs money, then Home Depot has a sign that says “hiring multiple positions no experience necessary starting at $18/hr” I get confused.

That’s not meant to sound snarky. Educate me.

I dunno the guy’s whole deal. Maybe he’s a child molester and doesn’t want a background check. I have no idea.

All I know is what he told me. He is a trained auto mechanic so I am asking around if anyone I know is aware of a shop that could use an extra hand. Two leads so far.

I also suggested he inquire with the tire center at Costco. They are known for good employee benefits.

I met him while attending church with my dad. Apparently he’s been going there for about 6 months. My dad has talked to him a handful of times prior to yesterday.

There are a lot of homeless people around my apartment, but none of them seem capable of working at all. Thesse guys are lifers. Some very interesting characters though.

Honest question: do places like McD’s care about that?

I’ve never been homeless so am open to being so wrong here. But I admit that when I see a guy standing outside Home Depot with a sign that says he can’t find a job and needs money, then Home Depot has a sign that says “hiring multiple positions no experience necessary starting at $18/hr” I get confused.

For purposes of this discussion, let's make some assumptions (not even necessarily about that person, but anyone in that situation really).

First, let's assume this person is African American.

Second, let's assume that he is he is 58 years old.

Third, let's assume he has a history of mental illness and has been in and out of state facilities.

Let's also assume that he has a criminal record for a non-violent crime that he committed 20 years ago.

He doesn't have a resume, nor any ability to create one (and wouldn't even know where to begin).

He doesn't have adequate references to vouch for him.

He doesn't have a bank account.

He does not have the means to make himself look presentable.

He has an 8-year old grandchild that's with him from shelter after shelter, and he depends almost exclusively on the public school to feed her. He also can't work more than 5 miles from that child's school.

So I ask: do you think it's as easy as that person just setting that sign down, walking into the home depot, and then 30 minutes later walking out with a job? Do you see how many factors come into play, from both his perspective and, more importantly, the person that's in charge of hiring? Most people don't aspire to be standing outside a store holding a sign begging for money and flushing their dignity away over anything else.

Hey doug since you’re so close by now, I can drive up there (assuming I don’t get chosen by the Canadian border police for a random covid quarantine) and teach you how to shave yourself. No charge.

i'm in washington state..what a shit show..went into town, i'm still unshaven...only haircuts no beards because of covid...lame

nobody wants to work anymore.

No one wants to work anymore.

Never seen anything like it

Some background might be helpful:

My parents were some of the most bleeding heart liberals I've ever known. Throughout my childhood, they ran our cramped duplex (which they owned) like a boarding house. There were drug addicts, exchange students, handicapped people, and others who needed some extra help, that my parents were glad to bring into our home, give them an apartment, and be extremely generous around the terms of the rental. While it no doubt had a positive empathetic impact on me, it also made my home feel not like my home; I felt like a guest in my own home, and it's something I've spent the bulk of my adult life trying to reconcile...

Additionally, we were very active in our church, including being part of a rotating list of families that would make a bunch of food and bring it to the local homeless shelter, probably once a month for a few years in my early teens.

When I was in my early 20s, I'd inherited my parents' worldview, and began to extend the use of the apartment to people myself: Students, travelers, etc. This desire to help other people, sometimes to my own detriment, extended into my romantic life several times over, with the end of that arc happening when a girlfriend became suicidal and was unwilling to take the help I was offering her (she died of a drug overdose a couple years ago, but this was back in 2005)...

At the same time I was dating this girl, I was also on food stamps in Portland, OR, and had to comply with the program by regularly attending job hunting workshops and report my efforts to find meaningful income. I got to know some of the people there, and some had fallen on really hard times; others were very openly gaming the system.

After the incident with the suicidal girlfriend, I moved to Boston, started therapy, and began unpacking all this stuff. It's long and complicated, but suffice it to say that my view began to shift towards one of believing that the best way to help someone in need was to teach them to fish, rather than give them a fish I'd caught myself. When I moved to Boston, I was well paid for the first time in my life, and would very regularly give money to panhandlers; by the time I'd left five years later, I'd ceased to do this.

Like Burt, my primary experience with homeless people was with the hordes of mentally ill, drugged-out, mostly caucasian veterans who bounced back and forth between Portland and SF. Only recently, here in Bozeman, have I begun to see another type of homeless person with regularity: Those who do not, at face value, seem to have mental illness (though they certainly could), and who are more often than not BIPOC. There's an affordable housing crisis here, and this seems to be the net result.

While I appreciate Chris's anecdote about the worst-case-scenario homeless person, and understand that's a common case, I have to admit that's not where my mind went when bammer talked about his desire to help this guy; his very desire to seek help suggested to me that he had at least enough mental and emotional stability to want to improve his situation in a meaningful way.

I don't think there's any one-size-fits-all approach to homelessness, and would never assume that all homeless people are the same, or that they are all without housing because they've had similar experiences. I will say that in my household today, we do virtually nothing that I'd call charity -- giving to make an immediate short-term impact -- and instead engage in philanthropy on an ongoing basis, primarily donating to orgs that make sustainable, measurable impacts within the realms of food security and news reporting.

I think it's really great that bammer wants to help this guy. My own experience is that these sorts of short-term charitable acts tend to do more to make the giver feel better about themselves than to actually make any measurable improvement in the receiver's life. I'm sure there are ample stories to counter that worldview, but my constitution is such that I am -- for better or worse -- more comfortable driving right past the pan handler at Home Depot, and donating money to an org that purports to help him through systemic means.

I don't claim this to be a perfect worldview. I was being 100% sincere when I said "educate me," because as I said, my experience with the homeless in Bozeman is very different from my experiences prior, and I'm not entirely sure how to square it. And I'm not sure if dad and mickey were being sincere or not when they said "nobody wants to work anymore," but I can tell you that it sure feels that way in Bozeman: There are help wanted signs in virtually every single place of business I frequent, basically none of them require a college degree, and many would, I'd think, have a high degree of flexibility around things like a lack of mailing address or non-violent criminal history.

I'd appreciate hearing more meaningful insights if anyone has anything to share.

I was mildly chastized for not including both Seattle and Portland as PNW strongholds of homelessness, but can anyone helpfully correct how those scenes are significantly different?

Bozeman seems like a bad place for the non-migratory homeless. Getting a frost overnight is uncommon here, no one bothers to try to protect their citrus or whatever.

How long do you go in Bozeman with sub-freezing weather?

[tragabigzanda]

FUCK ICE

[simple schoolboy]

I’d anticipate our nights will be anywhere from -20F - 30F until the spring.

I think New York compels their homeless into shelters under a weather justification. Do your authorities let them stay out in the elements if they choose to, or are they empoyered to bring them inside against their will?

[tragabigzanda]

FUCK ICE

[Jorge]

But... Bammer was helping the guy get a job, not handing him a $100 bill. He was teaching him to fish, not just buying him a meal

(though buying homeless people food is a good thing to do, fishing lesson notwithstanding)

[tragabigzanda]

FUCK ICE

[tragabigzanda]

FUCK ICE

[Bammer]

I’m much more apt to give a panhandler food than money.

[tragabigzanda]

FUCK ICE

[spike]

bammer why are you robbing this man of his agency

[Bammer]

I mean if all bammer did was ask some auto shops if they’re hiring, I guess I’d want to know what precluded the guy from doing that himself.

I think he lacks confidence … again it was a brief encounter but he hasn’t given up on his life.

So yes I am asking around my network to see if anyone has a job for him. 3 leads so far.

I’m not saying I dropped everything to help him and he’s my new best friend. I’m also saying I didn’t just ignore him after the customary meet n greet at the opening of the church service.

[Bammer]

“Here’s a case of frozen chicken wings, god dropped it on my doorstep so he wants you to have it.”

[tragabigzanda]

FUCK ICE

[Bammer]

I mean if all bammer did was ask some auto shops if they’re hiring, I guess I’d want to know what precluded the guy from doing that himself.

I think he lacks confidence … again it was a brief encounter but he hasn’t given up on his life.

So yes I am asking around my network to see if anyone has a job for him. 3 leads so far.

I’m not saying I dropped everything to help him and he’s my new best friend. I’m also saying I didn’t just ignore him after the customary meet n greet at the opening of the church service.

You are doing a good thing.

Have you always been a churchgoer or is this new?

Occasionally as to placate my dad.

[knee tunes]

I mean if all bammer did was ask some auto shops if they’re hiring, I guess I’d want to know what precluded the guy from doing that himself.

Wtf trag

[simple schoolboy]

This is a state of personal liberties dammit, and if the homeless wish to die in subzero temperatures, who are our elected officials to try and stop them

We've decided that restricting the supply of opiates of unknown potency is antithetical to progresive values, so they get to OD in the comfort of their tent.

We also agree that they have a right to housing, and poorly thought out nonprofits will provide them ToughSheds while they await the promised housing first initiative.

[Bammer]

Back to the NIMBY conversation from earlier in the thread.

If land/property is donated, that’s one thing. But in very expensive neighborhoods I think it makes sense not to try and develop affordable housing (whatever form that takes) because you could get a lot more bang for the buck literally just a couple miles away.

I generally support the construction of affordable housing if it’s going to be maintained respectfully, but I also think it’s important that the projects are done with an eye toward fiscal responsibility.

If you know the Seattle neighborhoods … you could build 10 units in Lake City for the price of one in Laurelhurst, I bet, and they are less than 5 miles apart.

[McParadigm]

Just keep flying that Children’s Hospital helicopter overhead. The ‘hursters are always saying they’re going to leave if it keeps up.