Are you not not going to watch the Oscars this year?

[Ms Harmless]

why don't we decide sex according to hair colour? it's literally because we don't fuck hair colour, and science said we needed a binary system to describe how we fuck

[tree_]

Well, reproduction is something

[Strat]

Well, reproduction is something

Reproduction and anatomy are real things.

[Ms Harmless]

sure, but nonbinary people are reproducing and having children they're not forcing a gender onto

[Ms Harmless]

Well, reproduction is something

Reproduction and anatomy are real things.

excellent work Strat

[Ms Harmless]

I love how I can go for pages and pages laying out this stuff and someone will still think I'm saying reproduction and anatomy are fake

[Rob]

when babies are born, our doctors could just be saying "your beautiful baby has this biological / anatomical arrangement; let's lay out a personalised plan for their healthcare" (and your baby can decide their gender as they grow); and that's a thing already starting to happen; I have friends raising kids this way

Are there more than 2 biological arrangements for 99%+ and then a mix of those two for that tiny minority?

"tiny minority"

sure I get where this is going

It's a simple question. Type "percentage of intersex births" into google and it'll tell you it's 1.7%. I'm asking if there is a 4th arrangement (your word).

there are innumerable configurations of "secondary sex characteristics" in humans; the fact that we can make a "minority" of any of those if we want to doesn't matter; we don't need to, there are good reasons not to, and science is increasingly agreeing

Sure, but how about the primary characteristics? We aren't talking about hair or the size of boobs. All I'm asking here is for you to admit that 98.3% of people are born with organs that science considers male or female. Half have penises and testicles, half have vaginas, uteruses and the ability to lactate. Is this not a fact? I mean no disrespect here, honestly. I just think facts matter, and while maybe we'll come to some other understanding at some point, we are at a point now where even a lefty/liberal guy like me thinks it's going too far. I've read a lot over the years about what Trans people go through and am genuinely sympathetic. I'm always for "rights for everyone" and wish people to live as they please. But denying what is science doesn't benefit anyone.

[Ms Harmless]

things people are saying could never work are already working

science!!

[Ms Harmless]

when babies are born, our doctors could just be saying "your beautiful baby has this biological / anatomical arrangement; let's lay out a personalised plan for their healthcare" (and your baby can decide their gender as they grow); and that's a thing already starting to happen; I have friends raising kids this way

Are there more than 2 biological arrangements for 99%+ and then a mix of those two for that tiny minority?

"tiny minority"

sure I get where this is going

It's a simple question. Type "percentage of intersex births" into google and it'll tell you it's 1.7%. I'm asking if there is a 4th arrangement (your word).

there are innumerable configurations of "secondary sex characteristics" in humans; the fact that we can make a "minority" of any of those if we want to doesn't matter; we don't need to, there are good reasons not to, and science is increasingly agreeing

Sure, but how about the primary characteristics? We aren't talking about hair or the size of boobs. All I'm asking here is for you to admit that 98.3% of people are born with organs that science considers male or female. Half have penises and testicles, half have vaginas, uteruses and the ability to lactate. Is this not a fact? I mean no disrespect here, honestly. I just think facts matter, and while maybe we'll come to some other understanding at some point, we are at a point now where even a lefty/liberal guy like me thinks it's going too far. I've read a lot over the years about what Trans people go through and am genuinely sympathetic. I'm always for "rights for everyone" and wish people to live as they please. But denying what is science doesn't benefit anyone.

I don't give a toffee what you think is "going too far", sorry

[Rob]

omg, just tell me if there is a 4th configuration of body parts and I'll be done.

[Ms Harmless]

I've spent my life being shoved into a "male" category because of various factors, so obviously "science" has been doing that; it's done unhealable damage to me, so you'll have to excuse me if I question and push against those boundaries and take things too far for Rob on RM

[Rob]

Science is the reason many people have come to understand that gender is fluid. Culture is your enemy, not science. I am not speaking about gender.

[Ms Harmless]

omg, just tell me if there is a 4th configuration of body parts and I'll be done.

there isn't TWO configurations! in order to name a fourth, we'd need to name a first and a second, and also what hierarchical order they come in

why though? we don't need to do it; so let's keep working towards not doing it

or not, I don't care what you do

[Ms Harmless]

Science is the reason many people have come to understand that gender is fluid. Culture is your enemy, not science. I am not speaking about gender.

I agree science isn't my enemy; it has saved my fucking life many times over

we'll still have science and still need science if we don't have a binary sex framework, you don't need to worry

[Ms Harmless]

also, Rob, you're still allowed to be a man with a dick in my scenario

[Strat]

also, Rob, you're still allowed to be a man with a dick in my scenario

I dont think the people here are worried about this, harmless.

[Ms Harmless]

also, Rob, you're still allowed to be a man with a dick in my scenario

I dont think the people here are worried about this, harmless.

I was being facetious and it made me laugh, I don't know what Rob is worried about

[BurtReynolds]

Harmless's framework or language isn't a big deal to me. People are free to believe whatever they want. More power to them if it gives them more control or meaning or understanding of themselves, and I think this is more than most people ever manage to do.

What is of interest to me is the a.) insistence that everyone else adopt this - and only this - framework as their own, and b.) that it is objectively, absolutely, materially real. This is - and I know everyone loves when I break out this word - tyrannical.

Harmless hasn't left the church. The perfect otherworld of platonic forms still rules.

[Rob]

I respect your tenacity, Ms Harmless. And I hope you believe I respect your choices in life (and everyone else's). Freedom means living how you want to live without discrimination. We may disagree on the biological sex issue, but who among us agree on everything?

[Strat]

Harmless's framework or language isn't a big deal to me. People are free to believe whatever they want. More power to them if it gives them more control or meaning or understanding of themselves, and I think this is more than most people ever manage to do.

What is of interest to me is the a.) insistence that everyone else adopt this - and only this - framework as their own, and b.) that it is objectively, absolutely, materially real. This is - and I know everyone loves when I break out this word - tyrannical.

Harmless hasn't left the church. The perfect otherworld of platonic forms still rules.

You had me till you went full on burt about tyranny.