TV: Better Call Saul

[Ms Harmless]

I feel like the greatest trick Shakespeare ever pulled was making us think his comedies were meant to be funny and his tragedies were meant to be sad; it was usually the other way round

[Mickey]

Haha okay.

[Ms Harmless]

https://www.bl.uk/shakespeare/articles/ ... res-comedy

[Ms Harmless]

Breaking Bad: "oh no I have cancer, I better make meth" is funnier to me as a premise than BCS, which is, ironically, good-hearted but naive lawyer breaks bad while being funny on the way

[elliseamos]

When thinking about BB, I'd imagine the entire concept of not being able to afford treatment would be baffling to non-americans.

[Mecca]

There are many good and enjoyable things about it. It's just very silly and occasionally stupid

if it's "comedy" at all, I think that's where the funny lies, and it seems very deliberately that way

it feels like Walt is living this bizarre, over the top narcissistic comedy of errors, while everyone around him is slowly having their lives ruined; the very silly and irresponsible is contrasted with the very serious and traumatized

that's my take, anyway! it's just a solid piece of genuine satire (not just something some dude has slapped the term "satire" onto just to defend it)

I’ve never seen BB called a satire and I’m not sure I would agree.

Your description of Walt does make me kind of view his story as someone who thinks they can control a wildfire cuz he does it successfully until he teams up with nazis

yeah, which is a Shakespearean tragedy and comedy of errors through and through; satirical in the truest sense

a satire doesn't have to be laugh-out-loud funny all the time, but it usually takes a knowingly over the top, hammy approach to dramatising its message, which in this case is essentially "pride comes before a fall" turned up to 11

tonally BB is all over the place but so is Gilligan; in X-Files he juxtaposed very dark and very funny all the time

I've seen BB talked about this way, but even if I hadn't, it's loud and clear to me

I think it’s a little more straightforward with the pride coming before a fall message just as it is with the fragile masculinity message. If it’s a satire of anything, it’s the American medical system.

[Ms Harmless]

I think it's a brilliant inciting incident, tbh

I have an American partner with multiple health issues and very little money, it's fucking shocking how your system treats them

I don't think *that* part is funny, but I do think the drug empire side-hustle solution is a comedic trope here in the context of a white suburban family in New Mexico, surrounded by people stuck in generations of poverty; that's shown by how out of control it gets; when Walt is in the clear medically he still wants to do it, he used to want health, he wants POWER now, which is already a character archetype but less often applied to white people, imo

as a character Walt is the Fool

[Ms Harmless]

There are many good and enjoyable things about it. It's just very silly and occasionally stupid

if it's "comedy" at all, I think that's where the funny lies, and it seems very deliberately that way

it feels like Walt is living this bizarre, over the top narcissistic comedy of errors, while everyone around him is slowly having their lives ruined; the very silly and irresponsible is contrasted with the very serious and traumatized

that's my take, anyway! it's just a solid piece of genuine satire (not just something some dude has slapped the term "satire" onto just to defend it)

I’ve never seen BB called a satire and I’m not sure I would agree.

Your description of Walt does make me kind of view his story as someone who thinks they can control a wildfire cuz he does it successfully until he teams up with nazis

yeah, which is a Shakespearean tragedy and comedy of errors through and through; satirical in the truest sense

a satire doesn't have to be laugh-out-loud funny all the time, but it usually takes a knowingly over the top, hammy approach to dramatising its message, which in this case is essentially "pride comes before a fall" turned up to 11

tonally BB is all over the place but so is Gilligan; in X-Files he juxtaposed very dark and very funny all the time

I've seen BB talked about this way, but even if I hadn't, it's loud and clear to me

I think it’s a little more straightforward with the pride coming before a fall message just as it is with the fragile masculinity message. If it’s a satire of anything, it’s the American medical system.

oh it's definitely an attack on the medical system, but if it was *just* that, they could get rid of all the dramatic irony and just do a documentary about any demographic of humans consistently affected by the issues

[Ms Harmless]

I think it's a brilliant inciting incident, tbh

I have an American partner with multiple health issues and very little money, it's fucking shocking how your system treats them

I don't think *that* part is funny, but I do think the drug empire side-hustle solution is a comedic trope here in the context of a white suburban family in New Mexico, surrounded by people stuck in generations of poverty; that's shown by how out of control it gets; when Walt is in the clear medically he still wants to do it, he used to want health, he wants POWER now, which is already a character archetype but less often applied to white people, imo

as a character Walt is the Fool

actually it just occurs to me now

the contrast between Walt and Nacho in BCS is brilliant, in that it demonstrates how much harder it was for Nacho to get clean and escape the life; yes, Walt and Nacho both died doing it, but Walt spent a lot more time having fun and feeling powerful first, and he actively and enthusiastically sought evil people to support him, in contrast to Nacho, who we start to sympathise with because we learn that he's been the victim of poverty *and* generational abuse / control, and he dies literally in the act of trying to run away; Walt is just different to that in every way

[Jorge]

I don't recall the generational abuse angle for Nacho's character? What am I forgetting?

[Jorge]

Also poverty? His father is a business owner, they're clearly working class but we don't really see them struggle in that way?

[Ms Harmless]

I don't recall the generational abuse angle for Nacho's character? What am I forgetting?

the show doesn't frame it in those terms, but it does show scenes of the inevitable emotional manipulation, normalisation of violence and control that would come from being generations-deep in a cartel, and the indebtedness that you might feel to some pretty shitty people, especially if they're your wider family; Nacho is not painted as having the squandered choices that Walt had; I think he was doomed from the start

[Ms Harmless]

Also poverty? His father is a business owner, they're clearly working class but we don't really see them struggle in that way?

maybe "victim of poverty" wasn't quite right, but yes, he's working class and Walt is not

also, I'm asking this because I genuinely can't remember: does Nacho know poor people in his circle he's invested in helping out of poverty? I can't remember if any of his family have that back story; if they do, though, it's another contrast with Walt, who essentially uses what *might* happen to his family as part of his sob story, so that he can sleep at night while running a mission that's entirely selfish; none of the Whites needed dirty money, they could have worked that out, but now they can't; iirc that was the reason for Skyler's whole despair

[epilogue]

I also liked all the main characters, even Skyler.

#TeamSkyler

[Jorge]

I have no real problem with Skyler except for that horrific "happy birthday Mr. President" scene

[Jorge]

Also poverty? His father is a business owner, they're clearly working class but we don't really see them struggle in that way?

maybe "victim of poverty" wasn't quite right, but yes, he's working class and Walt is not

also, I'm asking this because I genuinely can't remember: does Nacho know poor people in his circle he's invested in helping out of poverty? I can't remember if any of his family have that back story; if they do, though, it's another contrast with Walt, who essentially uses what *might* happen to his family as part of his sob story, so that he can sleep at night while running a mission that's entirely selfish; none of the Whites needed dirty money, they could have worked that out, but now they can't; iirc that was the reason for Skyler's whole despair

What you're describing doesn't sound like the character I remember. He's not generations deep within a cartel, he's not trying to help other people out of poverty. From what we see he comes from a loving and supportive household and fell in with the Salamancas. His motivation for the first two seasons appears to be profit (he even hires Mike to kill Tuco because Tuco's temper is bad for business). It's only when Gus and the Salamancas start to threaten his father that his motivation becomes escape

[Ms Harmless]

I have no real problem with Skyler except for that horrific "happy birthday Mr. President" scene

oof that was deeply uncomfortable in all the best ways

[Ms Harmless]

Also poverty? His father is a business owner, they're clearly working class but we don't really see them struggle in that way?

maybe "victim of poverty" wasn't quite right, but yes, he's working class and Walt is not

also, I'm asking this because I genuinely can't remember: does Nacho know poor people in his circle he's invested in helping out of poverty? I can't remember if any of his family have that back story; if they do, though, it's another contrast with Walt, who essentially uses what *might* happen to his family as part of his sob story, so that he can sleep at night while running a mission that's entirely selfish; none of the Whites needed dirty money, they could have worked that out, but now they can't; iirc that was the reason for Skyler's whole despair

What you're describing doesn't sound like the character I remember. He's not generations deep within a cartel, he's not trying to help other people out of poverty. From what we see he comes from a loving and supportive household and fell in with the Salamancas. His motivation for the first two seasons appears to be profit (he even hires Mike to kill Tuco because Tuco's temper is bad for business). It's only when Gus and the Salamancas start to threaten his father that his motivation becomes escape

one day I will go back to this show and try find references to support how I felt about Nacho; truth is though beyond a couple of seasons my attention has wondered in and out, so I might be projecting onto him things that are an amalgamation of other characters

I am totally right about BB though!

[Ms Harmless]

and I know I was trying to find evidence for my feelings in the recesses of my shitty memory, but I'm still sticking to my take that somehow, Nacho's downfall just felt more sympathetic to me; I didn't care about Walt in the end, I just wanted Skyler and Flynn out of there

[Jorge]

He's definitely more sympathetic in the end, absolutely