General Education Topik

[Bi_3]

This district ranked #597 out of 607 Ohio school districts with 40.3% chronic absenteeism last year.

So, they tried something different. Why are you so traumatized by a district of 3 schools trying something new at their schools?

I guess if they drop 10 slots, they can reinstate the 5th day.

It's far more widespread than just one district, that's how social scientists have been able to study it and show it doesn't improve student outcomes. Since we know it doesn't benefit students and more districts are doing it anyway, what does that tell you about the intent of the administrators and educators in those districts and what stops it from becoming more widespread?

I guess if they drop 10 slots, they can reinstate the 5th day.

I suppose we could just round up those kids, drop them in the time machine, and take a mulligan. I hadn't thought of that.

[B]

Since we know it doesn't benefit students and more districts are doing it anyway,

I know it's cool and all to tweet outrage at every slight change in the status-quo, but that tweet did leave off any supporting data, leaving me to google. This was an interesting statement:

"In all, the study’s findings don’t align well with the rhetoric about the four-day week from either proponents or detractors."

https://www.edweek.org/leadership/4-day ... ks/2021/10

Looks like even though achievement slows slightly there are all sorts of benefits to the kids, teachers, and community. I guess if math scores are the be-all and end-all, 5 days it is. But even then, research is still on-going.

It's far more widespread than just one district,

I guess I missed the "disturbing trend" because the tweet was about the insanity of 3 schools in literally nowhere, Ohio changing to a 4-day week.

[McParadigm]

that's how social scientists have been able to study it and show it doesn't improve student outcomes.

In one specific scenario, Park Middle School in Antioch, California saw a dramatic reduction in student suspension rates from greater than 50% to 8.4% across the two- year implementation period of trauma-informed practices (Udesky, 2018). Another case in Buncombe County Schools in North Carolina involved middle schools participating in a pilot of a trauma-informed program; these schools saw a 60% reduction in short term suspensions, a 68% reduction in reportable offenses, and a complete eradication of long-term suspensions over the course of the pilot program. Further, middle schools that participated in the pilot saw higher increases in student academic growth and achievement than schools that did not participate in the program, as measured through statewide end-of-grade standardized assessments (Dotson, 2018).

And separately, a meta-analysis:

This article presents findings from a meta-analysis of 213 school-based (programs) involving 270,034 kindergarten through high school students. Compared to controls, participants demonstrated significantly improved social and emotional skills, attitudes, behavior, and academic performance that reflected an 11-percentile-point gain in achievement.

[Bi_3]

Since we know it doesn't benefit students and more districts are doing it anyway,

I know it's cool and all to tweet outrage at every slight change in the status-quo, but that tweet did leave off any supporting data, leaving me to google. This was an interesting statement:

"In all, the study’s findings don’t align well with the rhetoric about the four-day week from either proponents or detractors."

https://www.edweek.org/leadership/4-day ... ks/2021/10

Looks like even though achievement slows slightly there are all sorts of benefits to the kids, teachers, and community. I guess if math scores are the be-all and end-all, 5 days it is. But even then, research is still on-going.

It's far more widespread than just one district,

I guess I missed the "disturbing trend" because the tweet was about the insanity of 3 schools in literally nowhere, Ohio changing to a 4-day week.

Try reading the study abstract in the link literally directly above that quote. I'll provide the link to it for you:

Around three years after the switch, student growth in the four-day districts began to fall short compared to that in similarly situated five-day districts. The finding grew more pronounced with time and the slowdown in achievement was more dramatic in math than in reading. In all, the declines were on the order of between 0.05 to 0.15 of a standard deviation lower after three years, and around 0.2 of a standard deviation after eight years.

Effect sizes are hard to interpret in K-12 education but at least one research paper describes that as a medium to large effect—one that’s certainly larger than many other K-12 interventions. (The findings also echo those of a separate study on the effects of the policy in Oregon.)

In all, the study’s findings don’t align well with the rhetoric about the four-day week from either proponents or detractors.

And yes, students ability to read and do math is actually the most important part of school.

[Bammer]

B, please get out of the liberal echo chamber. It's doing you a disservice.

I'm sure you guys will keep me grounded.

My attempts have been met with “you should post less”

[Bi_3]

that's how social scientists have been able to study it and show it doesn't improve student outcomes.

In one specific scenario, Park Middle School in Antioch, California saw a dramatic reduction in student suspension rates from greater than 50% to 8.4% across the two- year implementation period of trauma-informed practices (Udesky, 2018). Another case in Buncombe County Schools in North Carolina involved middle schools participating in a pilot of a trauma-informed program; these schools saw a 60% reduction in short term suspensions, a 68% reduction in reportable offenses, and a complete eradication of long-term suspensions over the course of the pilot program. Further, middle schools that participated in the pilot saw higher increases in student academic growth and achievement than schools that did not participate in the program, as measured through statewide end-of-grade standardized assessments (Dotson, 2018).

And separately, a meta-analysis:

This article presents findings from a meta-analysis of 213 school-based (programs) involving 270,034 kindergarten through high school students. Compared to controls, participants demonstrated significantly improved social and emotional skills, attitudes, behavior, and academic performance that reflected an 11-percentile-point gain in achievement.

I am assuming your are referring to this: https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1214869.pdf

This is distinct from 4 day school or is reducing classroom hours part of trauma-informed practices?

[spike]

i know it's cool and all to tweet outrage at every slight change in the status-quo

[Bi_3]

i know it's cool and all to tweet outrage at every slight change in the status-quo

Begs the question... which changes in educational policy have measurably improved student outcomes?

[McParadigm]

This is distinct from 4 day school or is reducing classroom hours part of trauma-informed practices?

Sorry. Misunderstanding.

From the tweet you highlighted…

… I assumed that you were lumping the reduced school week in with the “trauma sensitive school“ approach.

In my defense, I only assumed this because your follow up comments sounded as if you believed the four day school week was an ideologically driven ambition…

If you're not gonna require basic skill mastery from kids before promoting them, give them homework, grade them, require attendance, feed them, reward them when the succeed, enforce discipline in the classroom, why bother even sending them?

…and not, as the local reporting has it, the consequence of an acute teacher shortage that we all talked about coming for 25 years and is hitting rural areas especially hard.

You may recall that over 40 districts in Texas have had to drop down to four day school weeks for the same reason. So have more than 30 individual South Dakota schools. After a point, you can’t resolve things without addressing sentences like this:

There aren't enough substitute teachers in North College Hill, so staff teachers are constantly covering for one another, which leaves them no time to plan or prepare.

But the goal, Blalock said, is increasing teacher retention and recruitment. North College Hill cannot compete with wealthier districts on pay, he said, so he hopes the schedule will help attract new talent.

Nationally, there were more than one-third fewer students enrolling in teacher prep programs in 2018 than in 2010. Ohio posted a decline of nearly 50 percent

[spike]

No McP, it’s INSANE

[Bi_3]

<snip>

…and not, as the local reporting has it, the consequence of an acute teacher shortage that we all talked about coming for 25 years and is hitting rural areas especially hard.

You may recall that over 40 districts in Texas have had to drop down to four day school weeks for the same reason. So have more than 30 individual South Dakota schools. After a point, you can’t resolve things without addressing sentences like this:

There aren't enough substitute teachers in North College Hill, so staff teachers are constantly covering for one another, which leaves them no time to plan or prepare.

But the goal, Blalock said, is increasing teacher retention and recruitment. North College Hill cannot compete with wealthier districts on pay, he said, so he hopes the schedule will help attract new talent.

Nationally, there were more than one-third fewer students enrolling in teacher prep programs in 2018 than in 2010. Ohio posted a decline of nearly 50 percent

Seems like all those slight changes in the status-quo over the years are adding up to a big problem. So how does the 4 day week, particularly when you are still bringing the kids to the building and someone is still being paid to supervise them and teachers are still working, address this?


Example study on the topic: https://www.ecs.org/clearinghouse/93/69/9369.pdf

[BurtReynolds]

Stop trying to help everyone. Stop throwing good money after bad. Use the money in more effective ways, for people who can be helped. It's a failed state. Get hard.

[spike]

Stop trying to help everyone. Stop throwing good money after bad. Use the money in more effective ways, for people who can be helped. It's a failed state. Get hard.

White people?

[BurtReynolds]

Stop trying to help everyone. Stop throwing good money after bad. Use the money in more effective ways, for people who can be helped. It's a failed state. Get hard.

White people?

You're never going to survive The Fall with that kind of racialized thinking.

[spike]

Stop trying to help everyone. Stop throwing good money after bad. Use the money in more effective ways, for people who can be helped. It's a failed state. Get hard.

White people?

You're never going to survive The Fall with that kind of racialized thinking.

Who can be helped?

[McParadigm]

<snip>

…and not, as the local reporting has it, the consequence of an acute teacher shortage that we all talked about coming for 25 years and is hitting rural areas especially hard.

You may recall that over 40 districts in Texas have had to drop down to four day school weeks for the same reason. So have more than 30 individual South Dakota schools. After a point, you can’t resolve things without addressing sentences like this:

There aren't enough substitute teachers in North College Hill, so staff teachers are constantly covering for one another, which leaves them no time to plan or prepare.

But the goal, Blalock said, is increasing teacher retention and recruitment. North College Hill cannot compete with wealthier districts on pay, he said, so he hopes the schedule will help attract new talent.

Nationally, there were more than one-third fewer students enrolling in teacher prep programs in 2018 than in 2010. Ohio posted a decline of nearly 50 percent

Seems like all those slight changes in the status-quo over the years are adding up to a big problem.

I don’t know what changes to the status quo you are referring to that caused a teacher shortage. I know that in 1998 when people would ask what I was going to school to become and I would say “teacher,” the most common first reaction was “well you shouldn’t have trouble finding work, with the coming shortage.” The combination of workforce aging and not enough new people coming in was a national news conversation back then…a decade before a 30% reduction in profession intake began. You may recall that the easing of teacher licensing in order to address the shortage was a central component of George W Bush’s education policy, his first year in office.

So how does the 4 day week, particularly when you are still bringing the kids to the building and someone is still being paid to supervise them and teachers are still working, address this?

I’m going to skip past the question of “How would decreasing stress, eliminating staff shortage-sourced overwork, and increasing the amount of in-office time teachers have to grade papers and plan lessons help us retain more teachers,” and instead, reemphasize the logistical reality that a shortage factually is. If you don’t currently have enough people to fully staff a five day school week and you are also facing drastic recruiting AND retention problems, there isn’t a world where you just get to keep going as is. Either those problems are addressed, or you have to start looking at reductions of services.

Remember last year when everyone was talking about a 10% drop in police applicants? Talking about how if it didn’t reverse, police services would necessarily have to be reduced? That was a 10% drop. Ohio is facing a 50% decline in applicants. If there’s an ideological model that is tearing apart these systems, it is the rejection of taxation policies that would allow us to pay cops and teachers what they’re worth.

[BurtReynolds]

Stop trying to help everyone. Stop throwing good money after bad. Use the money in more effective ways, for people who can be helped. It's a failed state. Get hard.

White people?

You're never going to survive The Fall with that kind of racialized thinking.

Who can be helped?

New Zealanders would be my guess.

[B]

i know it's cool and all to tweet outrage at every slight change in the status-quo

Begs the question... which changes in educational policy have measurably improved student outcomes?

Which outcomes?

[Bi_3]

i know it's cool and all to tweet outrage at every slight change in the status-quo

Begs the question... which changes in educational policy have measurably improved student outcomes?

Which outcomes?

I guess the most important are grade level reading and math ability.

[B]

i know it's cool and all to tweet outrage at every slight change in the status-quo

Begs the question... which changes in educational policy have measurably improved student outcomes?

Which outcomes?

I guess the most important are grade level reading and math ability.

Fucking worthless.