What are you currently reading?

[bart]

Courtney Love said the same thing back when Alanis first got big

[BurtReynolds]

We need to bring back the concept of selling out.

[bart]

That was a pretty nebulous concept even at its height and usually more about image than fact, and it was a flash in the pan in terms of art history, which has always been much more about balancing artistic endeavors with making your patrons happy

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

[BurtReynolds]

That was a pretty nebulous concept even at its height and usually more about image than fact, and it was a flash in the pan in terms of art history, which has always been much more about balancing artistic endeavors with making your patrons happy

And?

Let's bring it back. It is needed now more than ever.

[bart]

It’s just people pretending to have integrity by inserting a layer of perceived deniability between creators and commodifiers

[BurtReynolds]

Not everyone.

[bart]

Everyone we have heard of

[BurtReynolds]

Have you heard of William Blake?

[epilogue]

Yeah it’s not cringey at all, I’m doing it a disservice. It’s a long chapter on how they catapulted onto the stage, were immediately viewed by male-dominated mass media, then how they caught flack from the same media when they tried to evolve past the “fuck and run / go down on you in a theater” device that brought them fame with average male consumers.

He doesn’t accuse Phair/Alanis of anything; he more accuses the popular culture of being willing to embrace the commodification of one set of female experiences, and reject another.

He also touches on Salt n Pepa.

Ah. Yeah that's all definitely true. Look forward to reading it one day.

[VinylGuy]

Similar to what Fiona Apple said in the now classic mtv awards right?

I wonder were we are at right now we’re every female pop star seems to be more sexualized than ever.

[bart]

Have you heard of William Blake?

I don’t find his stuff to be very interesting but a perusal of his wiki shows plenty of examples of cozying up to patrons. Seems like he was too crazy to be very successful at it though

[BurtReynolds]

Have you heard of William Blake?

I don’t find his stuff to be very interesting but a perusal of his wiki shows plenty of examples of cozying up to patrons. Seems like he was too crazy to be very successful at it though

Getting money from patrons is one thing, changing one's art to get that money is selling out. Maybe if we had more "crazy" artists, we wouldn't live in such a compromised current world where people no longer have a choice and late generations no longer even think about it.

I think it's possible to find plenty of examples through history of people willing to burn for their passion, be it art, science, or whatever.

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

[The Argonaut]

Have you heard of William Blake?

I don’t find his stuff to be very interesting but a perusal of his wiki shows plenty of examples of cozying up to patrons. Seems like he was too crazy to be very successful at it though

Getting money from patrons is one thing, changing one's art to get that money is selling out. Maybe if we had more "crazy" artists, we wouldn't live in such a compromised current world where people no longer have a choice and late generations no longer even think about it.

I think it's possible to find plenty of examples through history of people willing to burn for their passion, be it art, science, or whatever.

I think Klosterman is saying that "selling out" was such a wide, nebulous term that it encompassed way too much, way beyond even what you're talking about here. "Selling out" would even include stuff like you going to that librarian conference to tell people you have a cool book for sale, or even those gigs you occasionally take at video game companies or whatever. If you don't want to sell out, you're supposed to wash dishes and hope that people find your art by magic. All selling risked being read as selling out. All compromise risked being read as selling out. That's how Klosterman remembers it

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

[epilogue]

Have you heard of William Blake?

I don’t find his stuff to be very interesting but a perusal of his wiki shows plenty of examples of cozying up to patrons. Seems like he was too crazy to be very successful at it though

Getting money from patrons is one thing, changing one's art to get that money is selling out. Maybe if we had more "crazy" artists, we wouldn't live in such a compromised current world where people no longer have a choice and late generations no longer even think about it.

I think it's possible to find plenty of examples through history of people willing to burn for their passion, be it art, science, or whatever.

I think Klosterman is saying that "selling out" was such a wide, nebulous term that it encompassed way too much, way beyond even what you're talking about here. "Selling out" would even include stuff like you going to that librarian conference to tell people you have a cool book for sale, or even those gigs you occasionally take at video game companies or whatever. If you don't want to sell out, you're supposed to wash dishes and hope that people find your art by magic. All selling risked being read as selling out. All compromise risked being read as selling out. That's how Klosterman remembers it

All aspirations beyond a purely broke bohemian lifestyle qualified as selling out, according to klosterman.

I thought that was the agreed upon definition

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

[epilogue]

Have you heard of William Blake?

I don’t find his stuff to be very interesting but a perusal of his wiki shows plenty of examples of cozying up to patrons. Seems like he was too crazy to be very successful at it though

Getting money from patrons is one thing, changing one's art to get that money is selling out. Maybe if we had more "crazy" artists, we wouldn't live in such a compromised current world where people no longer have a choice and late generations no longer even think about it.

I think it's possible to find plenty of examples through history of people willing to burn for their passion, be it art, science, or whatever.

I think Klosterman is saying that "selling out" was such a wide, nebulous term that it encompassed way too much, way beyond even what you're talking about here. "Selling out" would even include stuff like you going to that librarian conference to tell people you have a cool book for sale, or even those gigs you occasionally take at video game companies or whatever. If you don't want to sell out, you're supposed to wash dishes and hope that people find your art by magic. All selling risked being read as selling out. All compromise risked being read as selling out. That's how Klosterman remembers it

All aspirations beyond a purely broke bohemian lifestyle qualified as selling out, according to klosterman.

I thought that was the agreed upon definition

His chapter on models and “area code rap” is one of the flimsiest, useless things he’s ever written.

Oh boy