Song of the Moment: Indifference

[wease]

Fine matters, have it your dumb way.

Indifference
All or None
Stupid Mop
Master/Slave
Future Days
Around the Bend
Hummus
Avocado sound effect
The End
River Cross
Binaural Typing

I’d put Binaural Typing higher.

[Birds in Hell]

Hummus ranked way too low.

[tommy]

Both of trags rankings are ridiculously bad

[dad]

Hummus ranked way too low.

criminally.

[Farmer John]

Go grab your CD copy of Yield, skip to the very last track, and “All Those Yesterdays” will start to play. Do that again with Binaural and Ten and you’ll find yourself listening to “Parting Ways” and “Release”, son.

Now go ahead and try that very same thing with Vitalogy and what will you be hearing? “Stupid Mop”, my friend.

You can even do that with your vinyl copy if you prefer. Look for that groove before the last track, then drop, drop, drop that needle down, and sure enough, you’ll be groovin to “Stupid Mop” once again.

[Jaeti]

"Avocado Sound Effect" needs a substantial bump.

[E.H. Ruddock]

lol at this discussion

[Kevin Davis]

youve already had to introduce qualifiers to the simple rule in edge cases:

-the track has to be listed (even if the hidden track is an important part of an album’s ‘story’)

- the track cant be a bonus track (why not? it has a number. it is listed. It is sequentially included on a tracklisting. sometimes it is included from the begining)

-some songs like master/slave we definitely don’t consider part of Release, and yet they are on the same track. So Release closes Ten and not Master/Slave? Why is M/S not part of Release

these are not intended to be gotcha questions. It’s just that the idea of a closer means something different in our shared usage (i think$ as opposed to a last song or last track. A d given the way the overwhelming number of vitalogy listening experiences tend to stop w immortality, the way it can mark the end of a satisfying listening experience, and the extraneous ‘footnot’ nature of stupid mop means that in our practice immortality ends the core vitalogy experience and should be considered a closer in our sacred rankings.

There are a couple of qualifiers, since edge cases do exist, but they are relatively clear guidelines that can be applied objectively and consistently, and are really just my way of attempting to put into words what — I imagine, at least — the majority of listeners naturally intuit. There have been an abundance of discussions on RM over the years about album closers, and 99% of users seem to effortlessly agree on what group of songs that entails. I agree with you that there is some historical basis for believing that many listeners ignore "Stupid Mop," but I think it makes more sense to simply assume that this preference will play out in people's ratings, as opposed to assuming that the preference has somehow willed the song into being something other than what it demonstrably is.

We all joke about ranking things, but I think the reason it has proven such an effective conversation starter over the years is because it's a topic with clearly defined parameters and an extremely low bar for entry in order to participate. To that end, concepts like "the track which completes the album's narrative arc" (which is completely open to interpretation) and "the last track on the album that most listeners consistently listen to" (which is unknowable, and more often than not will likely just be a projection of our own preferences) are too subjective and ephemeral -- interesting discussions to have on their own, perhaps, but unnecessary complications to an otherwise simple, clear-cut concept.

I’m not understanding why a track being “hidden” somehow allows it to defy the definitions of last and closer.

Technically it doesn't, I just don't think it's consistent with what the discussion instinctively entails. Having only ever seen people argue for this hypothetically, I think listeners assume some intentionality on the part of the artist when they separate or hide something from the documented tracklisting. Perhaps this is incorrect.

[guitar_davey]

Hummus ranked way too low.

Hummus is also not on the vinyl version of of Yield, for what that's worth...

[dad]

Hummus ranked way too low.

Hummus is also not on the vinyl version of of Yield, for what that's worth...

hopefully it's on the 25th anniversary reissue.

[stip]

youve already had to introduce qualifiers to the simple rule in edge cases:

-the track has to be listed (even if the hidden track is an important part of an album’s ‘story’)

- the track cant be a bonus track (why not? it has a number. it is listed. It is sequentially included on a tracklisting. sometimes it is included from the begining)

-some songs like master/slave we definitely don’t consider part of Release, and yet they are on the same track. So Release closes Ten and not Master/Slave? Why is M/S not part of Release

these are not intended to be gotcha questions. It’s just that the idea of a closer means something different in our shared usage (i think$ as opposed to a last song or last track. A d given the way the overwhelming number of vitalogy listening experiences tend to stop w immortality, the way it can mark the end of a satisfying listening experience, and the extraneous ‘footnot’ nature of stupid mop means that in our practice immortality ends the core vitalogy experience and should be considered a closer in our sacred rankings.

There are a couple of qualifiers, since edge cases do exist, but they are relatively clear guidelines that can be applied objectively and consistently, and are really just my way of attempting to put into words what — I imagine, at least — the majority of listeners naturally intuit. There have been an abundance of discussions on RM over the years about album closers, and 99% of users seem to effortlessly agree on what group of songs that entails. I agree with you that there is some historical basis for believing that many listeners ignore "Stupid Mop," but I think it makes more sense to simply assume that this preference will play out in people's ratings, as opposed to assuming that the preference has somehow willed the song into being something other than what it demonstrably is.

We all joke about ranking things, but I think the reason it has proven such an effective conversation starter over the years is because it's a topic with clearly defined parameters and an extremely low bar for entry in order to participate. To that end, concepts like "the track which completes the album's narrative arc" (which is completely open to interpretation) and "the last track on the album that most listeners consistently listen to" (which is unknowable, and more often than not will likely just be a projection of our own preferences) are too subjective and ephemeral -- interesting discussions to have on their own, perhaps, but unnecessary complications to an otherwise simple, clear-cut concept.

I’m not understanding why a track being “hidden” somehow allows it to defy the definitions of last and closer.

Technically it doesn't, I just don't think it's consistent with what the discussion instinctively entails. Having only ever seen people argue for this hypothetically, I think listeners assume some intentionality on the part of the artist when they separate or hide something from the documented tracklisting. Perhaps this is incorrect.

sounds like the solution is to include them both!

[Matters]

Fine matters, have it your dumb way.

Indifference
All or None
Stupid Mop
Master/Slave
Future Days
Around the Bend
Hummus
Avocado sound effect
The End
River Cross
Binaural Typing

I don’t want it that way. I posted my list of closers and it included Release, Immortality and ATY as it should. My point is that bending the rules and definition of words is widely accepted for some albums but not so much for Vitalogy. I don’t care that Pearl Jam put an extra groove in the CD and vinyl to separate Immortality from Mop, or that they had Stupid Mop typed on the album sleeve. The listening experience of the album isn’t changed by either of those things.

[Matters]

I think listeners assume some intentionality on the part of the artist when they separate or hide something from the documented tracklisting. Perhaps this is incorrect.

I agree most active listeners probably take that into consideration. In general, I admit I usually lean towards “the artist’s intent is irrelevant.” That may seem brash but over time it’s often the reality.

[oasisfan35]

rankings [period] are ridiculous

[SatanicDmitrispearljam]

THE DEVIL LOVES PEDANTIC ARGUMENTS ABOUT ALBUM CLOSERS.

SATAN BELIEVES RELEASE TO BE THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE ANSWER. HAIL.

[Lounge Lizard]

Hummus ranked way too low.

Hummus is also not on the vinyl version of of Yield, for what that's worth...

Hummus gave me a bit of scare when I first heard it. Let me share a small personal memory.

I was a college student living in a rented apartment and my roommates were all away for the holidays so I had the whole place to myself.
I would frequently play Yield real loud taking advantage of the situation, but I would always press Next on the stereo at the end of All Those Yesterdays because I thought there was some kind of technical error at the end of the CD. I mean, a long weird silence with nothing happening - who has time for that when you can just listen to Brain of J in all its glory AGAIN?

But this one time ATY was on while I was in the shower with the bathroom door open. Then silence. I'm still in the shower, thinking my shower thoughts and doing shower things. Then SUDDENLY there's strange music I had never heard before. I am absolutely certain it's not coming from any of the CDs I own, for sure! First thought is someone broke into the place. There's a burglar in the apartment with me and I'm in the shower naked. The burglar must think no one's home. He likes to steal things while his favorite music is playing, so he pops a CD he brought with him into the stereo. Makes perfect sense to someone scared witless, dressed in foam and armed with a shampoo bottle held like a knife. Oh god

And that's how I found out there's a hidden track at the end of Yield.

[Matters]

Which Beatles song does All Those Yesterdays most closely resemble?

This is a tough question to answer. One of the reasons I admire ATY so much is because it’s always had a Beatles feel but it’s never reminded me of a specific Beatles song.

Probably Carry that Weight

It also has a bit of I’ve Got a Feeling and I Want You with a nice touch of what John referred to as Paul’s “granny shit.”

[wease]

Which Beatles song does All Those Yesterdays most closely resemble?

This is a tough question to answer. One of the reasons I admire ATY so much is because it’s always had a Beatles feel but it’s never reminded me of a specific Beatles song.

Probably Carry that Weight

It also has a bit of I’ve Got a Feeling and I Want You with a nice touch of what John referred to as Paul’s “granny shit.”

You’re one of those that says Given to Fly is nothing like Going to California, aren’t you?

[E.H. Ruddock]

Of all the songs that fans sing along to at shows, this one is the most irritating when it happens.

[wease]

Of all the songs that fans sing along to at shows, this one is the most irritating when it happens.

No, no. The call and response in Corduroy is much more irritating.