Israel & Palestine

[simple schoolboy]

[dimejinky99]

West Bank.

Hebron.

The hierarchy of nobody giving a fuck about
Innocent people who happen to be Palestinians
Getting murdered right fuckin now by Israel

Least of all you cunts

[BurtReynolds]

The war is proportional because Israelis feel more.

[Bi_3]

Probably should be in the proggles thread, but these people are just insane.

[simple schoolboy]

Dime has an advantage here because when shit starts to pop off, we are all asleep in North America.

[Bi_3]

Dime has an advantage here because when shit starts to pop off, we are all asleep in North America.

There no way Israel was letting it go when the video of the dad was released yesterday. That single vile act by Hamas is gonna result in thousands of deaths.

[E.H. Ruddock]

I don’t need to see the video, but what are you referring to?

[McParadigm]

As I understand it, they told him his wife and children were dead while they filmed him. Insanely cruel.

[Anders]

[simple schoolboy]

This kind of thing happens in the US, but normally the "good guy with a gun" at least has it in his hand. Maybe this is a one off, but maybe the Israeli government has a good reason to not trust it's citizenry with guns.

[Fattie_Vedder]

West Bank.

Hebron.

The hierarchy of nobody giving a fuck about
Innocent people who happen to be Palestinians
Getting murdered right fuckin now by Israel

Least of all you cunts

I echo this sentiment a million times. The silence and hypocrisy, especially of white Americans, is absolutely killing me.

[Fattie_Vedder]

I have intentionally stayed away from this thread for my mental health and fear that I'll find too many bloodthirsty and hateful voices, but I'm heartened to see some voices prioritizing our shared humanity. This is so close to my heart and something I've lived for most of my life. I wanted to share something I wrote weeks ago, on October 16, and I hope you'll read it. At the time, 1800 Palestinian civilians had been killed and 340,000 displaced. Now the death toll is well over 15,000 and over 1.2 million have been displaced to the south of Gaza, Israel has resumed carpet bombing the south. So much has come to light since October 7 that I can get into in another post, but for now, I'll ask, no beg, of you to please follow Palestinian voices from the ground, as well all voices calling for a ceasefire and an end to the genocide being committed in Israel's name. These are just a few of the excellent people (journalists, human rights lawyers, advocates for justice) that can provide a real perspective on what's happening and what is behind all this; a counter to the awful war-mongering western propaganda:

Noura Erakat - @nouraerakat - Palestinian Human Rights Lawyer
Jewish Voice for Peace - @jewishvoiceforpeace - fantastic Jewish led organization (I am a member and volunteer)
Motaz Azaiza - @motaz_azaiza - tremendous journalist who should be one of many on the ground that deserve a Person of the Year award.
The IMEU (Institute for Middle East Understanding) - @theimeu - excellent insight and reporting and background on middle east issues
Amanda Seales - @amandaseales - one of the few celebrities that is constantly speaking for Palestinian rights

------------------------------------

It’s with a heavy heart that I decided to write this. But I made the decision for several reasons. Staying silent feels wrong, and my conscience will not allow it. There are too many voices (especially in the media) that are contributing to a one-sided narrative, and there is fear of recrimination that has silenced too many voices. I’m hoping this will encourage others to speak up in the name of justice and humanity.

Watching the horrors unfold over the past several days, I can’t even begin to describe my feelings. Heartbreak, pain, rage, numbness, dread. I am truly sorry for all the Palestinians and Israelis who are grieving the loss of their loved ones. The pain is overwhelming. It seems like we have two choices: justify the abduction and killing of civilians by Hamas, or unquestionably support the Israeli government’s starvation and mass murder of two million Palestinians caged in an open-air prison, most of them children. I don’t believe that. We must be able to hold multiple truths at once.

Violence against civilians must be unequivocally condemned. And all violence must be put into context. Israel, boasting one of the world's most formidable military forces, frequently launches attacks on the mostly defenseless Palestinian population residing in Gaza. Prior to the ongoing assaults, Israel had already taken the lives of 400 Palestinians this year, including dozens of innocent children. In 2021 alone, Israel's actions led to the deaths of more than 260 Palestinians in Gaza, with at least 67 of them being children, all within a span of fewer than two weeks. Gaza has been subjected to a brutal siege for 16 years, effectively isolating over 2 million Palestinian residents from the rest of the world. This blockade has resulted in dire shortages of essential supplies such as medicine, food, electricity, and clean water, making life unbearable. The United Nations and humanitarian organizations have unequivocally condemned this blockade as illegal and its consequences as "catastrophic." Any commentary or analysis that disregards these facts is hollow, immoral, and dehumanizing.

It is simply incorrect to state that the actions of Palestinian militants are unprovoked. Every day, under Israel's apartheid system and state-sanctioned terrorism, is itself a provocation. The suffocating siege imposed on Gaza is a provocation. The unchecked actions of settlers who terrorize entire Palestinian communities, soldiers who carry out raids and demolish Palestinian homes, and those who commit acts of violence against Palestinians in the streets, all while being emboldened by Israeli officials who openly advocate for ethnic cleansing and expulsion, serve as provocations.

While footage of Israeli soldiers breaking into Palestinian homes, abducting Palestinian children, snipers targeting civilians and journalists, settler-led attacks on Palestinian families, and air raids that devastate entire neighborhoods can be easily found on the internet, it often receives minimal to no coverage from mainstream media. In contrast, footage of violence perpetrated by Hamas will be on loop for weeks to come. When one witnesses the horrific acts of violence against Israeli civilians and feels a justified sense of revulsion and outrage, it is essential to ask oneself if the same emotions are evoked when such acts are committed against Palestinians.

The current attention on this issue arises because the crimes were committed against Israelis rather than Palestinians. Otherwise, the world might have turned a blind eye to Israel's ongoing cycle of violence and oppression against Palestinians. Those who rightly and passionately condemn Hamas' violence often remained silent when Palestinian children were killed by Israeli gunfire and airstrikes for decades. To borrow a quote from Nicholas Kristof “If your moral compass is attuned to the suffering of only one side, your compass is broken, and so is your humanity.”
There is a consistent history of double standards. Non-stop coverage of abductions, executions, and kidnappings of Israelis floods social and mainstream media while Palestinian families are bombed and starved mostly off-screen, as they have been for most of their lives. Outrage sparks over hostages taken to Gaza, while commentators fail to mention 5,000 Palestinian prisoners currently held by Israel, many of them children abducted from their homes in the night and held without charge.

Israeli leaders have repeatedly used language that is tantamount to calling for genocide against Palestinians, even prior to these attacks by Hamas. Now, with the help of Western media and governments, they are weaponizing the war crimes of Hamas to rally unquestionable support for mass killing and collective punishment of all Palestinians. Some U.S. politicians are publicly encouraging Israeli military retaliation against civilians in the Gaza Strip, stating that Israel should “level the place”. The crimes must be called for what they are. Some politicians, celebrities, and media alike have mobilized racial tropes and shared unsubstantiated claims of rape and beheading babies, the effect of which foments even more hatred and justification for retaliatory murder. MSNBC has removed three Muslim news anchors from their scheduled slots since the attacks amid accusations the network was “too sympathetic to Palestinians”. Meta and X have been shadow banning and straight-up closing accounts of journalists and people who share posts of events on the ground or posts that are critical of Israel’s actions.

Western media has largely overlooked the context of Israel's enduring structural violence, subjecting Palestinians to a persistent suffering and slow death. Despite numerous well-documented war crimes, accountability remains absent, and the siege tightens. Even if Hamas were to vanish, Israel's policy of settler colonial expansion persists. Neglecting this context amounts to telling Palestinians that they must suffer and die quietly.

What has this led to? As of three days ago, Israel has killed over 1,800 Palestinians, including 580 children and 248 women. The UN estimates 340,000 people have been displaced. 10 medical centers, 48 schools, and 22,639 homes have been destroyed. Israel has been carpet bombing entire neighborhoods, targeting residential buildings, hospitals, and UN schools and refugee camps. Israeli jets have also bombed the headquarters of the Palestinian Red Crescent and targeted first responders and ambulances tending to injured civilians. Israeli jets are dropping white phosphorous bombs on Palestinian civilians. Israel has completely cut off all water, electricity, and food supplies from Gaza. If not reversed, this could set the two million people on the path of mass starvation. Israel has destroyed the only exit out of Gaza, which means Gazans are now completely trapped with no way out. Yesterday, Israel ordered 1.1 million people living in northern Gaza to evacuate their homes and move south by the end of the day, an order that violates international law and paves way for genocide. It is impossible to evacuate over one million people in north Gaza in under 24 hours – and Israel knows this. Gaza didn’t have the infrastructure to support movement of this many people before this attack – it’s even more impossible now. Israel is intentionally killing civilians as they try to evacuate; bombing a bus carrying over 40 civilians trying to leave as ordered. Even if people can leave the north, Israel continues to bomb south Gaza.

Until one is willing to acknowledge Israel’s history of violent oppression and its active role in intentionally creating Hamas as a means to subvert the peace process, displacing Palestinians, and engaging in ethnic cleansing, any one-sided condemnation of Palestinian violence will ring hollow.

If we’re going to be morally consistent and care about the lives and well-being and freedom of both Palestinians and Israelis equally, we will need to realize there is no military solution to this violence. Resolving this problem requires justice through an end to Israeli apartheid and occupation. There is no path to a future of safety and freedom for all Israelis and Palestinians without an end to the untenable status quo of Israel’s decades long brutal occupation.
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If you would like to learn more about the context and history, and hear different perspectives, check out the links below:

For an Israeli perspective, read Ilan Pappe’s article - My Israeli Friends: This is Why I Support Palestinians - https://www.palestinechronicle.com/my-i ... novRSSJ9R0

For a 20 minute must-see video by Human Rights Attorney Noura Erakat, watch Gaza in Context - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmRPkfAN2EU

For an Arab perspective, read Moustafa Bayoumi’s article - The double standard with Israel and Palestine leaves us in moral darkness - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... Vh4XpZ_jPs

For a detailed historic perspective, read “Palestine, Israel and the Arab-Israeli Conflict” by Joel Beinin and Lisa Hajjar (last updated 2014) - https://merip.org/palestine-israel-prim ... novRSSJ9R0

Report by the The Interim Revolutionary Feminist Committee debunking allegations of mass rape against settler women - "Tear Feminism Out of The Hands of the Colonizer" - https://interimrevfemcommittee.substack ... 3baWWt3UWw

Israeli officials saying their government cannot confirm babies were beheaded in Hamas Attack - https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleea ... BzBQJozkI8

[Fattie_Vedder]

Hamas is the autorities on Gaza, and numbers and reports primarily come from them. Here they reported that Israel bombed a hospital that killed 500 people (later revised to 471). Turns out it wasn't Israel that bombed it. That's not insignificant.

Israel did bomb Al Shifa. The videos (and audio) that purportedly show a “misfired” rocket were debunked. Meanwhile, while debating who bombed Al Shifa, Israel has since bombed and raided dozens of hospitals, refugee camps, and schools. They claimed there was a Hamas base under Al Shifa. There wasn’t. This is about destroying all infrastructure in Gaza and making it uninhabitable.

[simple schoolboy]

Hamas is the autorities on Gaza, and numbers and reports primarily come from them. Here they reported that Israel bombed a hospital that killed 500 people (later revised to 471). Turns out it wasn't Israel that bombed it. That's not insignificant.

Israel did bomb Al Shifa. The videos (and audio) that purportedly show a “misfired” rocket were debunked. Meanwhile, while debating who bombed Al Shifa, Israel has since bombed and raided dozens of hospitals, refugee camps, and schools. They claimed there was a Hamas base under Al Shifa. There wasn’t. This is about destroying all infrastructure in Gaza and making it uninhabitable.

Welcome to the party!



To well aksually it, the Israel did it crowd could at best allege a single artillery round did it, which is kind of indistinguishable from a rocket. Aerial bomb, not so much.

[Fattie_Vedder]

Hamas is the autorities on Gaza, and numbers and reports primarily come from them. Here they reported that Israel bombed a hospital that killed 500 people (later revised to 471). Turns out it wasn't Israel that bombed it. That's not insignificant.

Israel did bomb Al Shifa. The videos (and audio) that purportedly show a “misfired” rocket were debunked. Meanwhile, while debating who bombed Al Shifa, Israel has since bombed and raided dozens of hospitals, refugee camps, and schools. They claimed there was a Hamas base under Al Shifa. There wasn’t. This is about destroying all infrastructure in Gaza and making it uninhabitable.

Welcome to the party!



To well aksually it, the Israel did it crowd could at best allege a single artillery round did it, which is kind of indistinguishable from a rocket. Aerial bomb, not so much.

The video that was used as “evidence” that it was a misfired rocket was from August 2022 https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/vide ... 023-10-18/

https://new.thecradle.co/articles-id/7999

And while we’re fixated on finding conclusive evidence of who actually bombed Al Ahli hospital (I mistakenly said Al Shifa above), Israel has bombed several other hospitals and intentionally targeted and slaughtered thousands of civilians https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/14/gaz ... lth-crisis

Several Israeli officials have spouted genocidal rhetoric and said they will “prioritize damage over accuracy”. I believe.

[Anders]

Hamas is the autorities on Gaza, and numbers and reports primarily come from them. Here they reported that Israel bombed a hospital that killed 500 people (later revised to 471). Turns out it wasn't Israel that bombed it. That's not insignificant.

Israel did bomb Al Shifa. The videos (and audio) that purportedly show a “misfired” rocket were debunked. Meanwhile, while debating who bombed Al Shifa, Israel has since bombed and raided dozens of hospitals, refugee camps, and schools. They claimed there was a Hamas base under Al Shifa. There wasn’t. This is about destroying all infrastructure in Gaza and making it uninhabitable.

I'm only commenting on and reporting from what I believe are reputable sources.

While it's terrible that people are dying, whether it's in Gaza, the West Bank, Israel, Ukraine or elsewhere (there are still several other conflicts), facts still matter.

I can repeat that I believe Israel has used excessive force in Gaza, and think there should be little doubt about that, even amongst those that fully support Israel.

[dimejinky99]

1000 Palestinians murdered in just the last 24 hours. After being ordered to move south, the IDF started attacking those moving south.

[Fattie_Vedder]

Hamas is the autorities on Gaza, and numbers and reports primarily come from them. Here they reported that Israel bombed a hospital that killed 500 people (later revised to 471). Turns out it wasn't Israel that bombed it. That's not insignificant.

Israel did bomb Al Shifa. The videos (and audio) that purportedly show a “misfired” rocket were debunked. Meanwhile, while debating who bombed Al Shifa, Israel has since bombed and raided dozens of hospitals, refugee camps, and schools. They claimed there was a Hamas base under Al Shifa. There wasn’t. This is about destroying all infrastructure in Gaza and making it uninhabitable.

I'm only commenting on and reporting from what I believe are reputable sources.

While it's terrible that people are dying, whether it's in Gaza, the West Bank, Israel, Ukraine or elsewhere (there are still several other conflicts), facts still matter.

I can repeat that I believe Israel has used excessive force in Gaza, and think there should be little doubt about that, even amongst those that fully support Israel.

Your sources have been mostly mainstream western media and organizations that support the perpetrators and occupying power. Are you seriously claiming that the BBC and AICE are reputable? The former much like CNN and other U.S. based major news organizations have been severely biased towards Israel and downplayed its atrocities, and the former's agenda is to further the political agenda of the U.S. and Israel in the Middle East.

This is not just excessive force by Israel, there is an actual case to be made that this is genocide. I'm not throwing this term around. Human Rights organizations and genocide scholars have called it a genocide. Here is Jewish Currents and a few other holocaust scholars saying it's a textbook case of genocide: https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide
https://www.wrmea.org/israel-palestine/ ... ocide.html

Usually the hardest thing to prove or classify something as a genocide is proof of intent. There has been no shortage of Israeli officials calling for the complete annihilation of all infrastructure in Gaza to make in uninhabitable, and eventual expulsion of the 2+ million population to other neighboring countries. Whether it's Netanyahu quoting the biblical passage of Amalek to "put to death men, women, children, and donkeys", or the IDF saying "The emphasis is on damage, not accuracy", or several other Israeli officials spouting genocidal rhetoric, their intent is clear. This is a good summary from The Guardian: https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... lestinians

Netanyahu instructed one of his closest aides, Ron Dermer, minister of strategic planning, to explore ways to "thin out" Gaza's population. He asked for a plan that "enables mass escape of Palestinians to Europe and African countries by opening sea routes our of the strip. Israel's plan is to depopulate Gaza of Palestinians. This was reported by Israeli newspaper Hayom last Friday.

You absolutely need to follow voices on the ground, especially Palestinian voices that are not affiliated with Hamas. You need to see what is actually happening. I understand there is a lot of misinformation out there, which is all the more reason to follow independent sources, those that prioritize humanity and equity, and to hear from those directly affected.

One of the best sources for information and analysis is +972 Magazine. They are an independent, online, nonprofit magazine founded and run by both Israeli and Palestinian journalists. Please read this: https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassinati ... bing-gaza/

Some of what you say leads me to believe you do not actually understand or know what is happening in Gaza, not only currently, but since 2005. I don't want to make assumptions about whether you're intentionally obfuscating the situation or perhaps unaware, so I'm curious to hear from you what you think was happening in and to Gaza before October 7.

[E.H. Ruddock]

Now, with the help of Western media and governments, they are weaponizing the war crimes of Hamas

Well written post, I agree with a lot of it but you seem to gloss over most of October 7 in your post and this line in particular is a little misdirected I think. Hamas weaponized their war crimes when they committed war crimes. And while the reports of beheading babies, etc. may or may not be true, Hamas kidnapped and killed small children as well on October 7.

My next comment is on society in general, not your post, your position, or any of our positions on here. It is hard to envision any country suffering an attack such as 10/7, 9/11, etc. that wouldn't respond with military force/violence. This doesn't justify the oppression that the people that committed those acts they suffered or perceive, but it is where we are as a society. It would be interesting (from a psychological standpoint, none of this is "interesting") to know what Hamas leaders were thinking when planning this attack. Did they think ahead to what Israel's reaction would be? If so, they had to know the coming additional suffering they were creating in Gaza.

By the way, within Israel, there obviously needs to be strong and harsh repercussions for the fact that they apparently knew a year ago that something like this was being planned. There won't be, but Israelis need to demand much, much more accountability from their government on this particular incident.

[Anders]

The BBC is under constant criticism in Israel for its pro-Palestinian coverage, they have even refused to call Hamas terrorists.

I look forward to seeing more of your Palestinian sources here. Although like you pointed out, I have found there to be a lot of unreputable sources out there.

If you quote a mainstream media, I at least would believe that the likelihood of something being true, is higher. I also get a lot of my news from Norwegian sources, and consider those mostly with little bias, and if any, it’s usually pro-Palestinian.