Feminism

[malice]

Malice, look at the statistics. Rape and taking advantage of intoxicated college girls is a fact. It happens. They're only trying to help prevent further dangers. This has nothing to do with telling the girls to stop tempting boys. Stop seeing it through that narrow view of yours.

dude, the problem is that taking advantage of drunk (stupidly so, admittedly) girls is perfectly acceptable behavior, by college boys and by men of all ages, really. this society approaches these issues ass-backwards.
you don't tell the girls to behave themselves so the poor men don't have to take advantage of them. you educate the boys throughout their lives to stop giving into their baser instincts and act like men instead of prick mother fuckers who actively seek out easy pussy to get for the evening. get me?

telling women to not drink while the men can continue their shitty treatment of women as long as the open excuse of 'she was completely wasted, bro' is allowable is sexist and fucked up on so many levels that it's not even a joke.

you think women should be held to a higher standard of behavior simply because in this culture, and in most cultures, for men, it's nearly a rite of passage, even now with you oh, so, very enlightened gen-y kids. guys still get all the benefit of the doubt and girls are told to keep their legs crossed, be good, and stop acting like tramps.

bullshit, I say.

I agree. The guys should be instructed as well. But what I feel you're attacking is already inherent in the environment. Some guys are asshole predators. How do you prevent that? It's like telling everyone in the neighborhood of Compton, CA to be polite & respective to outsiders. But if you know of a way to help reduce these college rapes by instructing boys to not be assholes, please, by all means, find your nearest local university and tell them.

that's what RM is for, babe.

and you completely miss my point here. when this is the type of article that's written, it's indicative of the overall mind set of the society. when these are the policies instituted by universities, it's indicative of the overall mind set of the society.

and seriously, if you think instructing a bunch of dumb ass 18 year old girls to not get thoroughly wasted at a party etc in order to maintain their whatever (I almost wrote dignity, but you don't have any at 18) - if you think that works, you're as fucked in your head as I make fun of you for being.

sarah's comments are good ones- you punish the assholes, and you do it swiftly and without the 40 step process of humiliation that girls who press charges against the guys who date rape them etc have to go through.
you also institute laws that make it not worth an asshole's time or efforts to break them just for a piece of ass that night.

[malice]

Malice, look at the statistics. Rape and taking advantage of intoxicated college girls is a fact. It happens. They're only trying to help prevent further dangers. This has nothing to do with telling the girls to stop tempting boys. Stop seeing it through that narrow view of yours.

You don't think that prosecuting some of the abusers, and slinging them out of college and into jail would do the same thing in a much more robust, just and effective way?

I would also add that a lack of this proper action, coupled with the "advice" I linked to only contributes to the unneeded and wrongful fear placed upon women that rapists are just around the corner, and they're on their own to deal with it. Living with that kind of fear around is pretty shitty.

Meanwhile, here's a great retort to the article I linked:

http://annfriedman.com/post/64213173982 ... ting-drunk

sorry, didn't want to bottom page this

[Harry Lime]

I get it, malice, you want a societal change. That's a lot to ask for short term. In the mean time, there are small ways to help prevent further danger (as I've discussed), and hopefully at the same time your ideas & Sarah's will be implemented as well.

[BurtReynolds]

Its well meaning but ultimately wrongheaded advice.

that said...

The belief that one shouldn't be raped when drunk doesn't preclude one from being raped. Identifying and punishing a rapist doesn't preclude the rape either. It may have some impact on future rapes, but sadly I doubt that much.

that said...

I'm certainly not going to restrict my freedoms because of threats or inequalities that exist in society, and women shouldn't either.

that said...

Rapist aren't around every corner anyway.

that said...

Rape is inherently difficult to prove I think. I'm not sure that can change, short of cameras everywhere.

that said...

Many rapes have witnesses or are else easily proven that are not because of groupthink idiots and wrongheaded policies.

that said...

Victims should be protected from humiliation as much as possible, but not at the expense of a fair trial. I'm also not a fan of making it easier to falsely accuse. I wonder if steps could be taken to prevent damage and attacks to both parties until the trial is concluded? Probably not.

that said...

I dont remember what I was arguing.

[Green Habit]

I get it, malice, you want a societal change. That's a lot to ask for short term. In the mean time, there are small ways to help prevent further danger (as I've discussed), and hopefully at the same time your ideas & Sarah's will be implemented as well.

I don't think the change is really a lot to ask for. Teach boys not to rape, and demand the same when they become men.

[Harry Lime]

I get it, malice, you want a societal change. That's a lot to ask for short term. In the mean time, there are small ways to help prevent further danger (as I've discussed), and hopefully at the same time your ideas & Sarah's will be implemented as well.

I don't think the change is really a lot to ask for. Teach boys not to rape, and demand the same when they become men.

I always thought that fell under common sense, to be a good & decent human being. And I'm sure some places have those meetings with college men. Will it help? I want it to. But I don't know.

[surfndestroy]

Malice, look at the statistics. Rape and taking advantage of intoxicated college girls is a fact. It happens. They're only trying to help prevent further dangers. This has nothing to do with telling the girls to stop tempting boys. Stop seeing it through that narrow view of yours.

You don't think that prosecuting some of the abusers, and slinging them out of college and into jail would do the same thing in a much more robust, just and effective way?

I would also add that a lack of this proper action, coupled with the "advice" I linked to only contributes to the unneeded and wrongful fear placed upon women that rapists are just around the corner, and they're on their own to deal with it. Living with that kind of fear around is pretty shitty.

Meanwhile, here's a great retort to the article I linked:

http://annfriedman.com/post/64213173982 ... ting-drunk

You really think that's a great retort. A retort that brands all men as potential rapists. Grow a set. Men are not the problen, rapists are the problem. Men can and should be part of the solution but not by branding them as potential rapists.

[BurtReynolds]

I get it, malice, you want a societal change. That's a lot to ask for short term. In the mean time, there are small ways to help prevent further danger (as I've discussed), and hopefully at the same time your ideas & Sarah's will be implemented as well.

I don't think the change is really a lot to ask for. Teach boys not to rape, and demand the same when they become men.

I assume the argument is that people and sometimes larger sections of society have fucked definitions of what constitutes rape, and surely you don't think "teaching boys not to rape" is some kind of panacea? I doubt most rapists aren't acting against their moral codes, assuming they have any. And from a societal standpoint is there a greater negative social stigma than being a rapist, besides being a child molester? I doubt many are unaware of that.

[stip]

the article is pretty clear on that

“I’m not saying all men are rapists,” says one expert.

[Harry Lime]

the article is pretty clear on that

“I’m not saying all men are rapists,” says one expert.

And that other article was pretty clear about not blaming women, but of course that went over peoples heads.

[Soma.]

I was going to go for a bit of the ol' non consensual in-out, in-out with a defenseless lass last night while doing my rounds but then I remembered the seminar I attended in my youth and thought better of it.

[malice]

this whole thing has a lot (as in A LOT) more to do with the attitudes about sexuality and how we teach children about sex than anyone seems to be talking about.

more on this later.

[Sarah.]

I get it, malice, you want a societal change. That's a lot to ask for short term. In the mean time, there are small ways to help prevent further danger (as I've discussed), and hopefully at the same time your ideas & Sarah's will be implemented as well.

I don't think the change is really a lot to ask for. Teach boys not to rape, and demand the same when they become men.

I assume the argument is that people and sometimes larger sections of society have fucked definitions of what constitutes rape, and surely you don't think "teaching boys not to rape" is some kind of panacea? I doubt most rapists aren't acting against their moral codes, assuming they have any. And from a societal standpoint is there a greater negative social stigma than being a rapist, besides being a child molester? I doubt many are unaware of that.

Is that really true? Here's a hypothetical question for you.
If I said that I was often coerced into having sex with my ex husband, often with threats of harm, often manipulated into agreeing to certain things I didn't want to do, and not only did I think that it was perfectly ok, but he did too, what kind of stigma would that bring?

If I called rape and took him to court (it's unlikely it'd ever get that far), I'd never be able to win a case like that. His friends would rally round and agree on how much of a fucked up bitch I was trying to ruin his life. Tell me I'm not right. Meanwhile, who's dealing with the fallout of being in that situation and trying to get over it?

Rape is not just being stalked by a crazy stranger because you drank a few beers and walked home. In fact it's rarely that simple to define.

[Sarah.]

It was Freshers Week not so long ago, and the usual twats were out with all their 'fuck a fresher' mysogynistic bullshit that they spout. One college got a bit annoyed with all the rubbish and tweeted this:

"Consent is really too low a bar, hold out for enthusiasm".

I like that. I'm going to teach it to my boys.

[Soma.]

Wait, so whats your point re: the hypothetical situation in which a woman suffers through abuse at the hand of her husband? Sometimes bad people do bad things and sometimes those bad things are difficult to prove in the court of law. That's all there is to it. Blatant miscarriages of justice are a question of corruption rather than sexism. Also, there is help out there for women in strife. I understand its not a black and white case, but one must be willing to help themselves by reaching out or speaking up.

[Sarah.]

Wait, so whats your point re: the hypothetical situation in which a woman suffers through abuse at the hand of her husband? Sometimes bad people do bad things and sometimes those bad things are difficult to prove in the court of law. That's all there is to it. Blatant miscarriages of justice are a question of corruption rather than sexism. Also, there is help out there for women in strife. I understand its not a black and white case, but one must be willing to help themselves by reaching out or speaking up.

Sorry, my point was about the negative stigma of being a rapist. Plenty of people have been accused of rape (eg Roman Polanski) and gone on to do just fine thanks very much. It's easy to hate a monster who jumped on a girl and beat her up, a lot harder to hate your neighbour who may have just roughed his wife up once or twice.

[Soma.]

Yeah I'm out of here.

[Sarah.]

Yeah I'm out of here.

[Harry Lime]

Yeah I'm out of here.

That's one of the smartest responses I've read in this thread today.

[BurtReynolds]

I get it, malice, you want a societal change. That's a lot to ask for short term. In the mean time, there are small ways to help prevent further danger (as I've discussed), and hopefully at the same time your ideas & Sarah's will be implemented as well.

I don't think the change is really a lot to ask for. Teach boys not to rape, and demand the same when they become men.

I assume the argument is that people and sometimes larger sections of society have fucked definitions of what constitutes rape, and surely you don't think "teaching boys not to rape" is some kind of panacea? I doubt most rapists aren't acting against their moral codes, assuming they have any. And from a societal standpoint is there a greater negative social stigma than being a rapist, besides being a child molester? I doubt many are unaware of that.

Is that really true? Here's a hypothetical question for you.
If I said that I was often coerced into having sex with my ex husband, often with threats of harm, often manipulated into agreeing to certain things I didn't want to do, and not only did I think that it was perfectly ok, but he did too, what kind of stigma would that bring?

If I called rape and took him to court (it's unlikely it'd ever get that far), I'd never be able to win a case like that. His friends would rally round and agree on how much of a fucked up bitch I was trying to ruin his life. Tell me I'm not right. Meanwhile, who's dealing with the fallout of being in that situation and trying to get over it?

Rape is not just being stalked by a crazy stranger because you drank a few beers and walked home. In fact it's rarely that simple to define.

Personally, I can't think of a single person I know that would react anyway but extremely negatively toward someone who threatens harm if they don't get sex, regardless of whether it was against his wife or if she agreed that it was ok. Maybe they won't get attacked in the street, maybe they wouldn't be seen the quite the same as a crazy stranger rapist, but he'd certainly be very negatively perceived (to put it mildly). I can't conceive of a situation where someone I know would react at all positively or even neutrally about it. I know its not like that everywhere, and some oldtimers or religious nuts might say stay out of marital affairs, and celebrities often get away with it, but I would go so far as to say that, as a whole, U.S. society's stance on nonconsensual sex is emphatically against, and thus isn't the major cause its made out to be.

Maybe I'm just giving humanity too much credit, i dunno. I try my hardest not to give people any at all, so I'd be surprised.

I do think people will often go into denial rather than recognize that a close friend or relative would be the type of person that would do such a thing, or look for any evidence that there is consent, but that isn't the same as condoning rape.

It would be difficult to win a case like that, because, assuming the husband denied it, its extremely difficult to prove. We can't suspend presumption of innocence just because a crime is particularly heinous or difficult to prosecute. Short of a signed and notarized agreement for every sexual encounter or the accused being presumed guilty until proven innocent, I don't know how it will ever not be inherently difficult to convict.

Another hypothetical: Would you date someone you knew was aquitted of rape charges, regardless of the variety? Would you at least be especially wary of him? I wouldn't let my kid be alone with someone who was even accused of forcing non-consensual sex, even if they were cleared of all charges. Can someone actually convicted of rape (in any of its forms) ever get a job as anything other than a dishwasher, assuming they survive prison (a place where they historically aren't very popular)? Sure, Mike Tyson did, but most people aren't Mike Tyson. He is an exception, not the rule, and even he was at least somewhat punished. There is most definitely a stigma against rapists in society. We aren't that broken, yet.