Israel & Palestine

[Anders]

[dimejinky99]

Worth pointing out every major government has now backed off and tellin them to stop. Germany Britain France and now the us

Israel is a Pariah state as it is but what’s happening in Rafah there are no words for. It is genocide.

[dimejinky99]

[Rob]

A two state solution was, is, and always will be the only possible way out of this 75 year horror show. I don’t know why it took a 10/7 type event, but what has followed was obvious, and now finally the world seems to think it needs to just get done already.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... ian-state/

[Anders]

A two state solution with the entire West Bank and Gaza as one state, is extremely unlikely to function well and peacefully, and to be one Israel or even the Palestinian population will accept.

[Bi_3]

A two state solution with the entire West Bank and Gaza as one state, is extremely unlikely to function well and peacefully, and to be one Israel or even the Palestinian population will accept.

A two state solution where Gazans are relocated to the West Bank in exchange for Israelis abandoning the settlements there to them would work in the long term but is an unspeakable option.

[Rob]

A two state solution with the entire West Bank and Gaza as one state, is extremely unlikely to function well and peacefully, and to be one Israel or even the Palestinian population will accept.

No one accepts the current situation. What everyone does accept is that people have a right to self determination, and without a Palestinian state or a single state where Palestinians have equal rights, that isn’t possible. We know that a single state is impossible in every way because it turns a Jewish state into something that no longer has a dominant Jewish majority - something we know would not be considered by Israelis (or Palestinians, for other reasons). That leaves the status quo as the only other option - some kind of ceasefire and security arrangement, like we’ve had countless times over the decades with the same inevitable flashpoint that occurs every now and then.

I think 10/7 shook everyone loose from that stance. When this is over, Palestinians will either be on their way to guaranteed statehood, or they will continue to be two million people being ruled over by people they don’t want ruling over them - the same people who they’ve been fighting against our whole lives. Not sure how a 2 state solution isn’t universally seen as the only viable path. The fact that it looks unlikely at the moment doesn’t matter. Nothing ever looks possible until it happens. In reality, the process itself is already somewhat known - what really ought to happen is to go back and fix a previous “mistake” - the 1948 partition seems to have forgotten to create two states even tho it clearly separates two peoples. Seems like an important thing to not do. No one is really asking to give Palestinians anything that wasn’t given to Israelis (in response to atrocities against Jews not committed by Palestinians), in accordance with what anyone in a western democracy would consider just.

[dimejinky99]

Our gov stepping in to help UNWRA

[Bi_3]

A two state solution with the entire West Bank and Gaza as one state, is extremely unlikely to function well and peacefully, and to be one Israel or even the Palestinian population will accept.

No one accepts the current situation. What everyone does accept is that people have a right to self determination, and without a Palestinian state or a single state where Palestinians have equal rights, that isn’t possible. We know that a single state is impossible in every way because it turns a Jewish state into something that no longer has a dominant Jewish majority - something we know would not be considered by Israelis (or Palestinians, for other reasons). That leaves the status quo as the only other option - some kind of ceasefire and security arrangement, like we’ve had countless times over the decades with the same inevitable flashpoint that occurs every now and then.

I think 10/7 shook everyone loose from that stance. When this is over, Palestinians will either be on their way to guaranteed statehood, or they will continue to be two million people being ruled over by people they don’t want ruling over them - the same people who they’ve been fighting against our whole lives. Not sure how a 2 state solution isn’t universally seen as the only viable path. The fact that it looks unlikely at the moment doesn’t matter. Nothing ever looks possible until it happens. In reality, the process itself is already somewhat known - what really ought to happen is to go back and fix a previous “mistake” - the 1948 partition seems to have forgotten to create two states even tho it clearly separates two peoples. Seems like an important thing to not do. No one is really asking to give Palestinians anything that wasn’t given to Israelis (in response to atrocities against Jews not committed by Palestinians), in accordance with what anyone in a western democracy would consider just.

Surprised here, this is a weak position from you Rob. The current situation is a three state solution and it is one of the primary weaknesses in the Palestinian cause. If you want a two state solution, one of them has to go.

[Rob]

A two state solution with the entire West Bank and Gaza as one state, is extremely unlikely to function well and peacefully, and to be one Israel or even the Palestinian population will accept.

No one accepts the current situation. What everyone does accept is that people have a right to self determination, and without a Palestinian state or a single state where Palestinians have equal rights, that isn’t possible. We know that a single state is impossible in every way because it turns a Jewish state into something that no longer has a dominant Jewish majority - something we know would not be considered by Israelis (or Palestinians, for other reasons). That leaves the status quo as the only other option - some kind of ceasefire and security arrangement, like we’ve had countless times over the decades with the same inevitable flashpoint that occurs every now and then.

I think 10/7 shook everyone loose from that stance. When this is over, Palestinians will either be on their way to guaranteed statehood, or they will continue to be two million people being ruled over by people they don’t want ruling over them - the same people who they’ve been fighting against our whole lives. Not sure how a 2 state solution isn’t universally seen as the only viable path. The fact that it looks unlikely at the moment doesn’t matter. Nothing ever looks possible until it happens. In reality, the process itself is already somewhat known - what really ought to happen is to go back and fix a previous “mistake” - the 1948 partition seems to have forgotten to create two states even tho it clearly separates two peoples. Seems like an important thing to not do. No one is really asking to give Palestinians anything that wasn’t given to Israelis (in response to atrocities against Jews not committed by Palestinians), in accordance with what anyone in a western democracy would consider just.

Surprised here, this is a weak position from you Rob. The current situation is a three state solution and it is one of the primary weaknesses in the Palestinian cause. If you want a two state solution, one of them has to go.

I’m not sure I follow. If you’re dividing the Palestinians into two as in Gaza + West Bank, I get it, but any future Palestinian state will be (at least at first) one state for both territories (and hopefully someone thinks to have a road or strip of land that connects them). And it may be that all this time divided has caused the two territories to become different, and maybe they’ll each want their own state one day, too. But that isn’t what’s in front of us.

[Bi_3]

A two state solution with the entire West Bank and Gaza as one state, is extremely unlikely to function well and peacefully, and to be one Israel or even the Palestinian population will accept.

No one accepts the current situation. What everyone does accept is that people have a right to self determination, and without a Palestinian state or a single state where Palestinians have equal rights, that isn’t possible. We know that a single state is impossible in every way because it turns a Jewish state into something that no longer has a dominant Jewish majority - something we know would not be considered by Israelis (or Palestinians, for other reasons). That leaves the status quo as the only other option - some kind of ceasefire and security arrangement, like we’ve had countless times over the decades with the same inevitable flashpoint that occurs every now and then.

I think 10/7 shook everyone loose from that stance. When this is over, Palestinians will either be on their way to guaranteed statehood, or they will continue to be two million people being ruled over by people they don’t want ruling over them - the same people who they’ve been fighting against our whole lives. Not sure how a 2 state solution isn’t universally seen as the only viable path. The fact that it looks unlikely at the moment doesn’t matter. Nothing ever looks possible until it happens. In reality, the process itself is already somewhat known - what really ought to happen is to go back and fix a previous “mistake” - the 1948 partition seems to have forgotten to create two states even tho it clearly separates two peoples. Seems like an important thing to not do. No one is really asking to give Palestinians anything that wasn’t given to Israelis (in response to atrocities against Jews not committed by Palestinians), in accordance with what anyone in a western democracy would consider just.

Surprised here, this is a weak position from you Rob. The current situation is a three state solution and it is one of the primary weaknesses in the Palestinian cause. If you want a two state solution, one of them has to go.

I’m not sure I follow. If you’re dividing the Palestinians into two as in Gaza + West Bank, I get it, but any future Palestinian state will be (at least at first) one state for both territories (and hopefully someone thinks to have a road or strip of land that connects them). And it may be that all this time divided has caused the two territories to become different, and maybe they’ll each want their own state one day, too. But that isn’t what’s in front of us.

I think the Palestinians divided themselves (obviously Israel is also to blame for this division) and it's not realistic to think the ruling parties (Hamas and Fatah) will suddenly agree to be friendly with each other and Israel. They are two distinct entities with distinct experiences over the last 75 years. So really it would be three states because connecting them would never work. Look at the map, where would that connection be? Would you recreate the divide but this time in Israel while creating a high speed channel for Hamas to move people and weapons into and out of Gaza? Or would you surround the southern two-thirds of Israel in Palestinian territory creating an indefensible border for the Israelis? It's three states, with Gaza under perpetual military occupation (maybe Arab, not necessarily Israeli) or two states with Gaza emptied by the kind of horrifying force the world rarely sees outside of African civil wars. I say "or" here because I believe Israel would use nuclear weapons before surrendering and clearly sacrificing Gaza is worth it to avoid nuclear war.

[dimejinky99]

This is big. Support for this genocide is crumbled internationally

[Bi_3]

This is big. Support for this genocide is crumbled internationally

Dime, you know that's just noise. Hamas will never lose all it's bargaining power by releasing the hostages.

[Rob]

A two state solution with the entire West Bank and Gaza as one state, is extremely unlikely to function well and peacefully, and to be one Israel or even the Palestinian population will accept.

No one accepts the current situation. What everyone does accept is that people have a right to self determination, and without a Palestinian state or a single state where Palestinians have equal rights, that isn’t possible. We know that a single state is impossible in every way because it turns a Jewish state into something that no longer has a dominant Jewish majority - something we know would not be considered by Israelis (or Palestinians, for other reasons). That leaves the status quo as the only other option - some kind of ceasefire and security arrangement, like we’ve had countless times over the decades with the same inevitable flashpoint that occurs every now and then.

I think 10/7 shook everyone loose from that stance. When this is over, Palestinians will either be on their way to guaranteed statehood, or they will continue to be two million people being ruled over by people they don’t want ruling over them - the same people who they’ve been fighting against our whole lives. Not sure how a 2 state solution isn’t universally seen as the only viable path. The fact that it looks unlikely at the moment doesn’t matter. Nothing ever looks possible until it happens. In reality, the process itself is already somewhat known - what really ought to happen is to go back and fix a previous “mistake” - the 1948 partition seems to have forgotten to create two states even tho it clearly separates two peoples. Seems like an important thing to not do. No one is really asking to give Palestinians anything that wasn’t given to Israelis (in response to atrocities against Jews not committed by Palestinians), in accordance with what anyone in a western democracy would consider just.

Surprised here, this is a weak position from you Rob. The current situation is a three state solution and it is one of the primary weaknesses in the Palestinian cause. If you want a two state solution, one of them has to go.

I’m not sure I follow. If you’re dividing the Palestinians into two as in Gaza + West Bank, I get it, but any future Palestinian state will be (at least at first) one state for both territories (and hopefully someone thinks to have a road or strip of land that connects them). And it may be that all this time divided has caused the two territories to become different, and maybe they’ll each want their own state one day, too. But that isn’t what’s in front of us.

I think the Palestinians divided themselves (obviously Israel is also to blame for this division) and it's not realistic to think the ruling parties (Hamas and Fatah) will suddenly agree to be friendly with each other and Israel. They are two distinct entities with distinct experiences over the last 75 years. So really it would be three states because connecting them would never work. Look at the map, where would that connection be? Would you recreate the divide but this time in Israel while creating a high speed channel for Hamas to move people and weapons into and out of Gaza? Or would you surround the southern two-thirds of Israel in Palestinian territory creating an indefensible border for the Israelis? It's three states, with Gaza under perpetual military occupation (maybe Arab, not necessarily Israeli) or two states with Gaza emptied by the kind of horrifying force the world rarely sees outside of African civil wars. I say "or" here because I believe Israel would use nuclear weapons before surrendering and clearly sacrificing Gaza is worth it to avoid nuclear war.

I get what you’re saying, and I’ve heard about how different these territories have become, but that seems a stretch to accomplish right now. Gaza is in no position to be able to govern itself. At least there’s a shell of the institutions you need in the West Bank, and with the promise of statehood, I think a bridge can be made. And the maps I’ve seen for a 2 state solution all have an access corridor to travel between the two areas.

[Rob]

If security is the #1 concern, giving them their state is your best bet, long term. This will never stop until that happens. Doesn’t really matter if in the long run it’s 2,3 or 7 states.

[Anders]

For a Palestinian state to bring peace, it would need for Palestinians to be:

1. Unified behind their state and their borders, in both Gaza and the entire West Bank
2. Give up all claims for what is Israel after the agreement is signed, including any right of return, and any official animosity towards Israel
3. Give up on whatever of Jerusalem they don't get.
4. Any normal state has an army, and if Palestine gets one, it must be peaceful towards Israel
5. Will probably have to give up a large part of the Jordan valley

What happens if Hamas or Islamic Jihad gets into power? What happens if the rulers in the West Bank and in Gaza are not the same again? What happens if attacks on Israel continue?

For a Palestinian state to bring peace, it would need for Israel to:

1. Fully disengage from what is the agreed land of the Palestinian state
2. Give up all claims to what is the agreed land of the Palestinian state
3. Will probably have to close down several settlements

It would be best if the Palestinian state was not in need of water or electricity from Israel. So that should be a priority.

What would Israel do if the rocket attacks against them continue, or any kind of other attack against their land?

What about a one state solution?

There are already more than two million muslims living peacefully and happily in Israel. They are the same people as the Palestinians. A peaceful one state solution is the best one, but might be hard to achieve, as the numbers of muslims and jews would be about even, and for Israel, a Jewish state is very important, as there are no other Jewish states, and Israel is surrounded by muslim states.

[Anders]

Also the Israeli Arabs (or Israeli Palestinians) are the same people as the Palestinians of Gaza and the West Bank. Same ethnicity, same version of the religion, shared history, still living in the same historical land.

[Rob]

Also the Israeli Arabs (or Israeli Palestinians) are the same people as the Palestinians of Gaza and the West Bank. Same ethnicity, same version of the religion, shared history, still living in the same historical land.

I’m not sure any reasonable person would disagree that if we could just make it one country with full rights for all, that would be best and easiest. This is never, ever, ever happening. At least not in our lifetimes. Israeli Arabs live there peacefully, yes. But as Arabs in a Jewish states. Their numbers keep them at a healthy minority. The entire point of Israel was to have a Jewish state - that ceases to be the case in a one state solution, and in my opinion you’d need to immediately get ready for the imminent civil war, with all sides now having access to what I assume is a pretty powerful arsenal.

The practical side of the two state solution isn’t as far off as you suggest. Plans have been drawn for decades now. Palestine is formed using 1967 borders along with East Jerusalem going back to them as their capital. And an access corridor to connect them. There’s plenty of examples out there. Would it be hard? Yes, and Israelis won’t like it. But in the end, it’s the Palestinians who had 56% of their land stolen from them, displacing more than half the population, and would now settle for half of it back, displacing many people as well, except these people only live there because the government helped them go live there in an effort to carve up and control the West Bank. Israel can be responsible for their relocation.

The other side many are often referring to is what I like to think of as the “will the Palestinians behave and earn it?” question. I think the leaders with this kind of thinking are somewhat culpable in all this. History shows this is not how it works. If you believe in a right to self determination, you must believe peope will fight until they get it. Oppressed/repressed people get more unstable and violent the longer they go without this. External forces created a monster, and I think it’s illogical to believe the monster will tame itself. A promise of a state, some action on the part of global forces that Palestinian leaders can bring back to their people and say “look, it’s happening” is the only way to reverse course and head back toward peace. They don’t need to earn it, it’s theirs, according to western philosophy. We took it from them. The things being considered for the sake of Israelis in all this were the same things considered in 1948, when they decided to give a quarter of the area’s population over half the territory. There are people alive today who saw the displacement of half a society to make way for a Jewish state in the heart of Arab Islam. What follows really isn’t surprising, is it? Palestinians didn’t cause this mess, they are victims that went generations with nothing but neglect.

Anders, yea it sucks that Gaza depends on Israel for basic things like water and electricity. But why is this? If Canada or Mexico could flip a switch and shut off the juice to America whenever it wanted… the solution would be to remove that ability and for America to control it themselves. Surely we all believe Palestinians can handle the basics like all other places.

[Anders]

You would split Israel in two with the access corridor, and of course, Israel will never agree to that.

[Bi_3]

You would split Israel in two with the access corridor, and of course, Israel will never agree to that.

Exactly. The only way to get two states with contiguous borders is the Palestinians abandoning Gaza to Israel in exchange for the forced removal of all Israeli settlements in the West Bank and the abandonment of all future claims to that land by Israel. This would make life much safer for Israel and Egypt and the Palestinians that lived in Gaza because they would now border Jordan, which is like 90% ethnic Palestinian due to the original partition in the 1940s, and Israel could no longer block them from receiving Arab support as a condition of obedience.