Feminism

[Sarah.]

If I tell my kids not to talk to strangers does that make me an apologist for child abductors/molestors?

Because telling a child not to talk to strangers is exactly the same as telling an adult not to misbehave.

Instead of telling our kids not to talk to and to be weary of strangers offering them candy or a ride to school, we should just teach adults not to abduct and molest kids right?

And if our kids get hurt we should say 'well you did talk to that stranger', right?

[Sarah.]

It's not about BLAME, it's about SAFETY.

Okay. I'm done.

So, don't misbehave for your own SAFETY because if you do and something happens then you've only got yourself to BLAME?

Okay. I got it.

[Fuzzy_Dunlop]

If I tell my kids not to talk to strangers does that make me an apologist for child abductors/molestors?

Because telling a child not to talk to strangers is exactly the same as telling an adult not to misbehave.

Instead of telling our kids not to talk to and to be weary of strangers offering them candy or a ride to school, we should just teach adults not to abduct and molest kids right?

And if our kids get hurt we should say 'well you did talk to that stranger', right?

Not even remotely, just like no one was ever suggesting a woman is ever to blame for getting raped.

[Sarah.]

I've had Pap smears that were more fun than this conversation. And just as likely to yield positive results.

[malice]

I can't even tell what point fuzzy_dunlop is trying to make, honestly

[Harry Lime]

Don't worry Fuzzy D., I understand you. As do a lot of officials in both universities & law enforcement.

[malice]

this whole thing has a lot (as in A LOT) more to do with the attitudes about sexuality and how we teach children about sex than anyone seems to be talking about.

more on this later.

this was a good article- and worth reading all the way through, but here's the part that applies here:

We’re Never Taught How to Get Sex
Even assuming that one happens to live in a state that teaches comprehensive sex-ed, we’re taught about the mechanics but nothing about how to actually go about finding it. We’re basically taught how it works and tossed out into the wild without even the vaguest idea of how to navigate the tricky world of sexual and romantic relationships without so much as a map or compass.
Now to be fair: I’m not suggesting that schools teach courses in seduction; if you thought that having the gym teacher explaining menstruation was awkward…
… but we do need to be willing to actually have an informed conversation about finding and starting relationships – including ones that are purely sexual.
The dominant cultural narrative is still that understanding social dynamics and being good at seduction should be instinctive and effortless. Some people are lucky enough to have an innate grasp of social interaction and attraction. Most don’t. Very few of us ever have any sort of conversation with anyone about how to date or find relationships and admitting that you want to get better is synonymous with saying “I’m a complete, helpless loser”.
When you have people who are taught that “only losers can’t get laid” combined with genuine ignorance as to how to actually get a woman or a man to like you, then you have a recipe for disaster. This is how you end up with a frat culture that believes the key to getting laid is to get women drunk – it’s an “easier” shortcut than actually learning how to generate sexual attraction. More and more teenagers are using sexual coercion – manipulating their partners into “giving it up” by getting angry or playing on their guilt; sometimes out of malice, but often because they don’t know any other way to get laid.
Of course, nature (and the free market) abhors a vacuum and people will try to fill it any way they can. And when the loudest voices out there offering to fill the void are the frat bros and the pick-up artists, then these are the ones that desperate and lonely people are going to turn to… and often learn all the wrong lessons in the process.

here's the whole article which encompasses much more that just this one subject, you should all read it.

What We Get Wrong About Sex
Harris O’Malley explains that for a country that places so much importance on sex, we seem to go out of our way to make ourselves miserable as possible over the subject.

http://goodmenproject.com/featured-cont ... ex-hesaid/

That seems more offensive than the article that got you pissed off. If only someone taught poor Johnny how to pick up girls he never would have resorted to rape.

that's all you got out of it?

[E.H. Ruddock]

My wife pretty much tells me what to do.

[BurtReynolds]

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[Jorge]

I've had Pap smears that were more fun than this conversation. And just as likely to yield positive results.

Just as a reminder, this is who you're dealing with:

Being rejected by multiple girls in high school and the first two years of college, because I was the "nice guy", really reduces my concern for women in abusive relationships.

A friend from high school was beat by her boy friend and she spent a day in the hospital. Six months later they were back together. Justify that decision. Please. "You don't understand unless you were in the relationship."

Horseshit.

[Harry Lime]

I've had Pap smears that were more fun than this conversation. And just as likely to yield positive results.

Just as a reminder, this is who you're dealing with:

Being rejected by multiple girls in high school and the first two years of college, because I was the "nice guy", really reduces my concern for women in abusive relationships.

A friend from high school was beat by her boy friend and she spent a day in the hospital. Six months later they were back together. Justify that decision. Please. "You don't understand unless you were in the relationship."

Horseshit.

And I knew you'd fall back on that. Something that I already apologized for. Instead of looking at what has been said the last couple days, You choose to live in the past. Which tells me you have nothing good to say.

[Jorge]

Remember when you were telling me about how you lectured a diversity group about how they need to stop taking offense to things? I can't educate you on systems of control, power and oppression that you're too shortsighted to even notice. Rape culture goes beyond saying "rape is okay"-- no one but the bitterest misanthrope will actually say that. If you can't see how policing young women's social interactions is contributing to that narrative, if you honestly can't see why that article is problematic, I can't do much for you but sit here in bemusement. Stick to movies. Movies can't reject you.

[stip]

One of my best students (hetero male) was at a gay bar with a friend (gay) for that friend's birthday. While he was there an older man slipped some date rape drug into my student's drink. The rest of the night the guy kept trying to get my student to go home with him, attempted to take advantage of his impaired judgement, and essentially stalked him in an 'I'm just trying to help' way. My student felt extremely self-conscious the entire night, was hyper aware of how he had to be careful of every signal he was sending, was worried about being left alone with this guy, and, the next week in class, wondered if this is how women feel all the time.

[Fuzzy_Dunlop]

I can't even tell what point fuzzy_dunlop is trying to make, honestly

I totally get why you think it sucks women should have to even think about ways to avoid getting raped, who doesn't? It pisses me off too, I have a daughter who will be going off to college in a few years. I don't want her living in fear that some asshole is going to rape her, that's total bullshit. I also think it sucks I have to worry about my kids getting kidnapped and that I can't let them walk to school.

Why is it Ok in one case to suggest we take precautions against predators and not the other? No one is offended if we teach our kids not to talk to strangers, no one would suggest that's a case of blaming the victim. No one would fault me for driving my kids to school or educating on them on ways to protect themselves.

In a perfect world neither child molestors or rapists would exist, but it's not a perfect world. Knowing its not a perfect world, why not take a pragmatic approach and do what we can to avoid bad situations?

This is not to suggest we can't burn the candle at both ends either. We don't have to throw up our arms and say boys will be boys there is nothing we can do about it. I'm all for doing whatever it takes so women don't have to worry about getting raped. Why does it have to be one approach or the other, why not both at the same time?

[Norah]

this whole thing has a lot (as in A LOT) more to do with the attitudes about sexuality and how we teach children about sex than anyone seems to be talking about.

more on this later.

this was a good article- and worth reading all the way through, but here's the part that applies here:

We’re Never Taught How to Get Sex
Even assuming that one happens to live in a state that teaches comprehensive sex-ed, we’re taught about the mechanics but nothing about how to actually go about finding it. We’re basically taught how it works and tossed out into the wild without even the vaguest idea of how to navigate the tricky world of sexual and romantic relationships without so much as a map or compass.
Now to be fair: I’m not suggesting that schools teach courses in seduction; if you thought that having the gym teacher explaining menstruation was awkward…
… but we do need to be willing to actually have an informed conversation about finding and starting relationships – including ones that are purely sexual.
The dominant cultural narrative is still that understanding social dynamics and being good at seduction should be instinctive and effortless. Some people are lucky enough to have an innate grasp of social interaction and attraction. Most don’t. Very few of us ever have any sort of conversation with anyone about how to date or find relationships and admitting that you want to get better is synonymous with saying “I’m a complete, helpless loser”.
When you have people who are taught that “only losers can’t get laid” combined with genuine ignorance as to how to actually get a woman or a man to like you, then you have a recipe for disaster. This is how you end up with a frat culture that believes the key to getting laid is to get women drunk – it’s an “easier” shortcut than actually learning how to generate sexual attraction. More and more teenagers are using sexual coercion – manipulating their partners into “giving it up” by getting angry or playing on their guilt; sometimes out of malice, but often because they don’t know any other way to get laid.
Of course, nature (and the free market) abhors a vacuum and people will try to fill it any way they can. And when the loudest voices out there offering to fill the void are the frat bros and the pick-up artists, then these are the ones that desperate and lonely people are going to turn to… and often learn all the wrong lessons in the process.

here's the whole article which encompasses much more that just this one subject, you should all read it.

What We Get Wrong About Sex
Harris O’Malley explains that for a country that places so much importance on sex, we seem to go out of our way to make ourselves miserable as possible over the subject.

http://goodmenproject.com/featured-cont ... ex-hesaid/

That seems more offensive than the article that got you pissed off. If only someone taught poor Johnny how to pick up girls he never would have resorted to rape.

that's all you got out of it?

I thought it had a good point, Mary. The problem is people take ideas like this and try to apply them to specific, short sighted situations. "If we just taught Johnny how to pick up chicks the right way he'd never be a rapist!". Instead of looking at it as a larger, cumulative, cultural issue.

[malice]

I can't even tell what point fuzzy_dunlop is trying to make, honestly

I totally get why you think it sucks women should have to even think about ways to avoid getting raped, who doesn't? It pisses me off too, I have a daughter who will be going off to college in a few years. I don't want her living in fear that some asshole is going to rape her, that's total bullshit. I also think it sucks I have to worry about my kids getting kidnapped and that I can't let them walk to school.

Why is it Ok in one case to suggest we take precautions against predators and not the other? No one is offended if we teach our kids not to talk to strangers, no one would suggest that's a case of blaming the victim. No one would fault me for driving my kids to school or educating on them on ways to protect themselves.

In a perfect world neither child molestors or rapists would exist, but it's not a perfect world. Knowing its not a perfect world, why not take a pragmatic approach and do what we can to avoid bad situations?

This is not to suggest we can't burn the candle at both ends either. We don't have to throw up our arms and say boys will be boys there is nothing we can do about it. I'm all for doing whatever it takes so women don't have to worry about getting raped. Why does it have to be one approach or the other, why not both at the same time?

I don't disagree, and it's not my intention to try to argue otherwise.

I am, however, trying to make my own point about how our culture has essentially allowed this kind of behavior towards women forever, and as a result, makes what I think of as rather hallf-assed attempts of rectifying that view now by the type of thing being discussed in that article - I don't think it's a 'bad' idea. I think it's an idea that is too little, too late, and ultimately, still not a valid treatment of women within the society because it still places the burden of responsibility of women to mind their manners be more socially competent than men, so still gives something of a 'pass' to guys for believing it's ok (even though I understand not all men are like this, and not all men will instantly try to take advantage of a woman who is drunk etc- I'm more interested in the broader aspects here though).

It's also the reason I posted that other article - which is from a site that deals with issues of the modern male, and I ahve actually found very interesting - It's by and for men who are interested in breaking down the socially accepted stereotypes of 'being a man' and redefining what that really means in the 21st century.
A lot of the fall out of the woman's movement is related to how men must now try to deal with what their roles are in the society so I think it's a good site, and a good article, which happened to touch upon the idea that part of the problem is that we don't approach sex in a healthy fashion, so it's easier to overlook or sometimes encourage young men 'behaving badly'

I don't think it's the only way to handle our larger issues with abuse and rape, I think it's only a piece of the much bigger puzzle to understanding how men and women can get along with each other, respect each other and enjoy each other physically without shame or intimidation or pre-set rules for dominance and submission.
that's all.

[Harry Lime]

Remember when you were telling me about how you lectured a diversity group about how they need to stop taking offense to things? I can't educate you on systems of control, power and oppression that you're too shortsighted to even notice. Rape culture goes beyond saying "rape is okay"-- no one but the bitterest misanthrope will actually say that. If you can't see how policing young women's social interactions is contributing to that narrative, if you honestly can't see why that article is problematic, I can't do much for you but sit here in bemusement. Stick to movies. Movies can't reject you.

Again, the diversity class is a separate issue and my words can easily be misinterpreted. And I don't feel like going into details again, but it was mainly to help people believe in themselves. But back on topic:

I had this conversation with my father last night. I told him my stance and those opposing it.

My father is one of the most respected members in his community. He has been in law enforcement 30+ years and has worked his way up the chain. He is on the school board, teaches criminal justice classes at universities. He has run the county jail five years and still gets letters from former inmates thanking him for treating them with respect, and dignity.

What I'm saying is that my father is one of the most finest, fairest human beings that I have ever met.

I told him about this debate and he didn't even bat an eye. He immediately understood what I was saying and he agreed. The key issue above all others is safety, he said.

Now, I'm happy he was on my side of the argument (as are plenty of other respected officials). But, platy, if you still consider me a "dullard", and someone who "misses the point", then you're essentially saying the same thing about my father. And you know what? So be it. You're not even half the man he is. Neither am I for that matter.

[Jorge]

Oh, well if your dad agrees with you. Sheesh. You should've said that sooner. That changes everything.

[Norah]

How do sluts in apartment complexes play into this conversation?

[Harry Lime]

Oh, well if your dad agrees with you. Sheesh. You should've said that sooner. That changes everything.

Yeah, you're right. My dad & I are on a fucking island.