The most embarrassing thing from PJ’s career - RESULTS

[oneway23]

the whole PJ20 time was weird, that was when it became clearest that they were just pretending the middle records didn't exist

Right...as if they were simply wandering through the wilderness for a spell, until the world summoned them back.
Not quite a fugue state, but, definitely an odd disassociation there, to a degree

and the whole "oops, suddenly mainstream all-American rock Gods on the level of Springsteen" thing; it's easy enough to allow them the notion that they'd worked for it, but it *felt* unearned while they were only really promoting the first three records

I would have been SO much more impressed had they gone forward with "no, Binaural, Riot Act and No Code are good actually"

Have they not since come around on those?
Other than Mike saying he was so stoned that he doesn't even recall making Binaural, I mean

[Ms Harmless]

the whole PJ20 time was weird, that was when it became clearest that they were just pretending the middle records didn't exist

Right...as if they were simply wandering through the wilderness for a spell, until the world summoned them back.
Not quite a fugue state, but, definitely an odd disassociation there, to a degree

and the whole "oops, suddenly mainstream all-American rock Gods on the level of Springsteen" thing; it's easy enough to allow them the notion that they'd worked for it, but it *felt* unearned while they were only really promoting the first three records

I would have been SO much more impressed had they gone forward with "no, Binaural, Riot Act and No Code are good actually"

Have they not since come around on those?
Other than Mike saying he was so stoned that he doesn't even recall making Binaural, I mean

I think things have slightly improved in that area, yeah

[Ms Harmless]

maybe they felt they needed to focus hard on the first few records to even justify a big PJ20 party

[Kevin Davis]

He's not Tony Williams

A man after my own heart

Not to get too far off-topic, but, unequivocally, my absolute favorite drummer of all-time....along with Billy Cobham, Neil Peart, Bill Bruford, Max Roach, Bonzo, Moon, and dozens of others, but, I digress...

Have I ever told you I have a memorial booklet from Max Roach's funeral? No, I did not attend, but, I knew someone, at one point, who did. Not my intention to be morbid, it's a rather nice booklet.

We do really need a jazz thread around here...

Don't look now, but there might just be one of these, possibly started by me. Please feel free to tell that story about Max Roach there.
http://forums.theskyiscrape.com/viewtop ... jazz#p1137

Totally with you on Tony Williams. Top of the heap for me too.

[stip]

the whole PJ20 time was weird, that was when it became clearest that they were just pretending the middle records didn't exist

Right...as if they were simply wandering through the wilderness for a spell, until the world summoned them back.
Not quite a fugue state, but, definitely an odd disassociation there, to a degree

and the whole "oops, suddenly mainstream all-American rock Gods on the level of Springsteen" thing; it's easy enough to allow them the notion that they'd worked for it, but it *felt* unearned while they were only really promoting the first three records

I would have been SO much more impressed had they gone forward with "no, Binaural, Riot Act and No Code are good actually"

Have they not since come around on those?
Other than Mike saying he was so stoned that he doesn't even recall making Binaural, I mean

I think things have slightly improved in that area, yeah

Irrespective of quality, the first three records are the only ones that have culturally mattered, and maybe No Code and Yield as the tail. That was by their design, but it does mean that they have an oversized role to play in understanding their legacy. There have been occasional hits since then, but Pearl Jam's ongoing legacy is their endurance, live shows, certain moves like what they did with bootlegs, activism, etc. Even the continued existence of music matters, as a testament to a fan base that remains interested in what they did, rather than having intrinsic importance. But Pearl Jam has had a (large) hermetic footprint post vitalogy.

On the other hand, I guess it depends who the audience for PJ 20 was, which was never entirely clear.

[oneway23]

Don't look now, but there might just be one of these, possibly started by me. Please feel free to tell that story about Max Roach there.
http://forums.theskyiscrape.com/viewtop ... jazz#p1137

Totally with you on Tony Williams. Top of the heap for me too.

Magnificent, Kevin...thank you!

I will withhold posting in there for now, as I'd prefer to have the time to properly take photos of it to show
I'll be traveling and without connection for the next ten days beginning tomorrow morning.
I'm hopeful there will be a new single to enjoy and/or dissect from a production standpoint upon my return
Please RM, don't miss me too much nor pine for my sweet return

[Ms Harmless]

the whole PJ20 time was weird, that was when it became clearest that they were just pretending the middle records didn't exist

Right...as if they were simply wandering through the wilderness for a spell, until the world summoned them back.
Not quite a fugue state, but, definitely an odd disassociation there, to a degree

and the whole "oops, suddenly mainstream all-American rock Gods on the level of Springsteen" thing; it's easy enough to allow them the notion that they'd worked for it, but it *felt* unearned while they were only really promoting the first three records

I would have been SO much more impressed had they gone forward with "no, Binaural, Riot Act and No Code are good actually"

Have they not since come around on those?
Other than Mike saying he was so stoned that he doesn't even recall making Binaural, I mean

I think things have slightly improved in that area, yeah

Irrespective of quality, the first three records are the only ones that have culturally mattered, and maybe No Code and Yield as the tail. That was by their design, but it does mean that they have an oversized role to play in understanding their legacy. There have been occasional hits since then, but Pearl Jam's ongoing legacy is their endurance, live shows, certain moves like what they did with bootlegs, activism, etc. Even the continued existence of music matters, as a testament to a fan base that remains interested in what they did, rather than having intrinsic importance. But Pearl Jam has had a (large) hermetic footprint post vitalogy.

On the other hand, I guess it depends who the audience for PJ 20 was, which was never entirely clear.

I feel like "culturally mattered" is something we could debate forever, but I guess my point really was, I don't think they've really earned "greatest all-American rock band" (or whatever the branding wanted us to believe) for making three albums, then (according to many) killing their career; I can't think of any other bands who did that who would earn the PJ20 hoo-ha; now, do I think that PJ deserve(d) it? absolutely I do, for a run of at least 7 great, intelligent, thoughtfully-put together albums, as well as a consistent live career that never slowed like their records did

I see your "only three albums that culturally mattered" and raise you... several others that Dark Mattered

[Ms Harmless]

the whole PJ20 time was weird, that was when it became clearest that they were just pretending the middle records didn't exist

Right...as if they were simply wandering through the wilderness for a spell, until the world summoned them back.
Not quite a fugue state, but, definitely an odd disassociation there, to a degree

and the whole "oops, suddenly mainstream all-American rock Gods on the level of Springsteen" thing; it's easy enough to allow them the notion that they'd worked for it, but it *felt* unearned while they were only really promoting the first three records

I would have been SO much more impressed had they gone forward with "no, Binaural, Riot Act and No Code are good actually"

Have they not since come around on those?
Other than Mike saying he was so stoned that he doesn't even recall making Binaural, I mean

I think things have slightly improved in that area, yeah

Irrespective of quality, the first three records are the only ones that have culturally mattered, and maybe No Code and Yield as the tail. That was by their design, but it does mean that they have an oversized role to play in understanding their legacy. There have been occasional hits since then, but Pearl Jam's ongoing legacy is their endurance, live shows, certain moves like what they did with bootlegs, activism, etc. Even the continued existence of music matters, as a testament to a fan base that remains interested in what they did, rather than having intrinsic importance. But Pearl Jam has had a (large) hermetic footprint post vitalogy.

On the other hand, I guess it depends who the audience for PJ 20 was, which was never entirely clear.

I feel like "culturally mattered" is something we could debate forever, but I guess my point really was, I don't think they've really earned "greatest all-American rock band" (or whatever the branding wanted us to believe) for making three albums, then (according to many) killing their career; I can't think of any other bands who did that who would earn the PJ20 hoo-ha; now, do I think that PJ deserve(d) it? absolutely I do, for a run of at least 7 great, intelligent, thoughtfully-put together albums, as well as a consistent live career that never slowed like their records did

I see your "only three albums that culturally mattered" and raise you... several others that Dark Mattered

and yes, they did a lot of cool other stuff during their career, but if you're a band, I think the music you made is paramount

[tragabigzanda]

pearl jam sucks now

[liebzz]

Irrespective of quality, the first three records are the only ones that have culturally mattered

I'd argue that the Binaural-Riot Act era pulled a not insignificant amount of people towards first Ralph Nader, and then towards John Kerry, with measurable results at the ballot

Al Gore might want to have a word with Eddie.

[stip]

Irrespective of quality, the first three records are the only ones that have culturally mattered

I'd argue that the Binaural-Riot Act era pulled a not insignificant amount of people towards first Ralph Nader, and then towards John Kerry, with measurable results at the ballot

Sure - but it's another example of Pearl Jam's relevance not being related to the actual albums, but who the band was as an institution or public entity. No one discovered Ralph Nader because of Binaural or voted for Kerry because of the cultural impact of Riot Act.

Pearl Jam's legacy, which I think is substantial, is built on the cultural cache build off those first 3 records, and then the moves the band had made as an entity in themselves. To Harmless' point, if their fans had hated every album they put out since I think this gets significantly diminished because Pearl Jam can't sustain itself. But the post Vitalogy records are fuel for Pearl Jam inc and everything that entails, and likely not significant in their own right outside of the circle of people predisposed to care. Granted that's a LARGE group.

There were a number of articles around the time of S/T wondering if Pearl Jam was pioneering a new distribution model. It felt potentially important at the time. But it was important because Pearl Jam was doing it, not because S/T was an important record, if that distinction makes sense.

[tragabigzanda]

pearl jam sucks now

[DeeDee]

Yeah excluding Dave from HOF ranks fairly high

Yes, it's at the top.

[DeeDee]

Yeah excluding Dave from HOF ranks fairly high

I change my vote

TBF I think this was out of their hands.

Absolutely not.

Stop saying things are out of their hands when they f*ck it up, please.

[DeeDee]

I honestly wasn't sure about this, so I crunched some numbers:

Dave A was in the band from August 1991 to August 1994, that is, for 3 years and approximately 300 shows (give or take).

Boom has been with the band since November of 2002 (probably not "in the band," even though he's been credited on every album since then, I'm pretty sure), which is 21+ years, and he's played about 520 shows.

The best and most important/famous era of their career.

[tragabigzanda]

pearl jam sucks now

[Iholdthepain]

They weren't really famous until March/April 1992, and important/best are just opinions. TBF, they sell WAY more tickets now than ever, and are obviously in higher demand, too.

[Farmer John]

[E.H. Ruddock]

No, we don’t

[oneway23]

LOL Farmer