Star Wars: Episode VII: The Force Awakens (2015)

[McParadigm]

I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to reconcile the whole 'remember this?' argument with the 'he tried to turn Star Trek into Star Wars!' argument. I'm not saying you're making both arguments, but plenty of others out there do. And I don't get that. Is JJ's take vile and offensive because it adheres too closely to Star Trek or is it vile and offensive because it's too unlike Star Trek?

I don't know that anybody argues that it's vile because it adheres too closely to Star Trek. I would say that he illustrated a keen eye for the iconic cultural footprints of the series, and a complete inability to recognize anything that wasn't surface-level and loud. The stories also had brutally lame storytelling shortcuts that had no reason to exist...things that could have been worked around and/or fixed with just the smallest investment in creativity...and (here's the real problem, I suppose) failed completely to add anything new or give the universe any direction whatsoever. NEW is really what both Trek and Wars need. They need it bad. And even if you did like these last two movies (sigh), then all you've really got are two enjoyable nostalgia-heavy movies and a franchise that is still running on old creative fumes.

[dimejinky99]

I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to reconcile the whole 'remember this?' argument with the 'he tried to turn Star Trek into Star Wars!' argument. I'm not saying you're making both arguments, but plenty of others out there do. And I don't get that. Is JJ's take vile and offensive because it adheres too closely to Star Trek or is it vile and offensive because it's too unlike Star Trek?

I don't know that anybody argues that it's vile because it adheres too closely to Star Trek. I would say that he illustrated a keen eye for the iconic cultural footprints of the series, and a complete inability to recognize anything that wasn't surface-level and loud. The stories also had brutally lame storytelling shortcuts that had no reason to exist...things that could have been worked around and/or fixed with just the smallest investment in creativity...and (here's the real problem, I suppose) failed completely to add anything new or give the universe any direction whatsoever. NEW is really what both Trek and Wars need. They need it bad. And even if you did like these last two movies (sigh), then all you've really got are two enjoyable nostalgia-heavy movies and a franchise that is still running on old creative fumes.

While I agree with the majority of that, I think the Star Trek universe has been overdone (films and tv) and that's it's big problem.

Whereas we don't know anything about the Star Wars universe really, and while that opens up a whole vista of potential, it has to be taken through in the right hands. And I still don't trust Abrams to deliver it successfully.

Remember the indigenous people in ST:ID?

Awful

[BurtReynolds]

Remember the indigenous people in ST:ID?

Awful

Hey that was the only trek-like moment in those movies for me.

[McParadigm]

While I agree with the majority of that, I think the Star Trek universe has been overdone (films and tv) and that's it's big problem.

A problem that can only be resolved by moving forward, not paying unending homage to the dreams of the dead.

Whereas we don't know anything about the Star Wars universe really, and while that opens up a whole vista of potential, it has to be taken through in the right hands. And I still don't trust Abrams to deliver it successfully.

Assuming Abrams would actually even explore that universe, rather than just try and hit on as many key memories as possible.

You can credit Abrams with a lot of different qualities...he won't be sitting on his ass with his coffee shooting three fucking movies worth of shot/reverse-shot against a green screen, for one thing (GAHH!!!). He builds sets and has his actors run through them, he can make a shot with 10% of the visual artistry of any scene in the prequels pop in a way they never, ever do, and he knows just the right spot in an action sequence to fit the joke in.

But he isn't an ideas man. He's no inventor. He's a curator of the past...good at cleaning the thing up, you know, and making it shine, and creating a provocative display that really captures its appeal. But you still end up admiring it the way you admire something that is firmly a part of the past, and as new as it may look for that brief moment...

[epilogue]

Its a cheap bad gimmick to begin with.

Lens flare.

Seriously.

We're supposed to admire someone's work and trust them because of lens flare??
Again, seriously??

OF COURSE DIME SERIOUSLY THE ONLY THING JJ ABRAMS HAS EVER BROUGHT TO THE TABLE IS LENS FLARES YOU SHOULD BOW DOWN AND TRUST HIM ABSOLUTELY BECAUSE LENS FLARES SERIOUSLY OHMYGOD LENS FLARES BUILT HOLLYWOOD AND THEY BUILD JJ ABRAMS AND LENS FLARES WILL BUILD YOU TOO SERIOUSLY LENS SERIOUSLY FLARES SERIOUSLY

Seriously!

[BurtReynolds]

I hope some one makes another go at a star trek series soon. Fits the stories and themes better. Star trek movies are just kind of inherently shitty.

[dimejinky99]

My friend wants Yoda.

His point being 'surely he didn't just pop into existence. There has to be a whole planet of them'

To which I replied 'maybe the force just coalesced and formed him out of pure force'.

We will see.

[dimejinky99]

Its a cheap bad gimmick to begin with.

Lens flare.

Seriously.

We're supposed to admire someone's work and trust them because of lens flare??
Again, seriously??

OF COURSE DIME SERIOUSLY THE ONLY THING JJ ABRAMS HAS EVER BROUGHT TO THE TABLE IS LENS FLARES YOU SHOULD BOW DOWN AND TRUST HIM ABSOLUTELY BECAUSE LENS FLARES SERIOUSLY OHMYGOD LENS FLARES BUILT HOLLYWOOD AND THEY BUILD JJ ABRAMS AND LENS FLARES WILL BUILD YOU TOO SERIOUSLY LENS SERIOUSLY FLARES SERIOUSLY

Seriously!

I think you're going to enjoy these films more than any of us.





Seriously.

[Thejambi]

Its a cheap bad gimmick to begin with.

Lens flare.

Seriously.

We're supposed to admire someone's work and trust them because of lens flare??
Again, seriously??

OF COURSE DIME SERIOUSLY THE ONLY THING JJ ABRAMS HAS EVER BROUGHT TO THE TABLE IS LENS FLARES YOU SHOULD BOW DOWN AND TRUST HIM ABSOLUTELY BECAUSE LENS FLARES SERIOUSLY OHMYGOD LENS FLARES BUILT HOLLYWOOD AND THEY BUILD JJ ABRAMS AND LENS FLARES WILL BUILD YOU TOO SERIOUSLY LENS SERIOUSLY FLARES SERIOUSLY

Seriously!

[McParadigm]

So apparently, according to the guy who leaked word about internal issues and possible script revision a while back, it's a total restart? With different characters, and none of Arndt's contribution sticking around?

If I was Arndt I'd leak my original script after the initial burst of love for JJ's homage piece is over, and the unending hangover has begun.

[epilogue]

I don't know that anybody argues that it's vile because it adheres too closely to Star Trek. I would say that he illustrated a keen eye for the iconic cultural footprints of the series, and a complete inability to recognize anything that wasn't surface-level and loud. The stories also had brutally lame storytelling shortcuts that had no reason to exist...things that could have been worked around and/or fixed with just the smallest investment in creativity...and (here's the real problem, I suppose) failed completely to add anything new or give the universe any direction whatsoever. NEW is really what both Trek and Wars need.

That's probably true that no one argues they adhere too closely, I was just riffing on all the nostalgia-heavy criticisms. But that's a different thing. I think there are two "issues" with JJ's take on Star Trek. The first is that he takes nearly all criticism for the films, even the writing, which isn't his. The stylistic choices are all him, but I rather liked all those choices YES SERIOUSLY EVEN THE LENS FLARES SERIOUSLY and I think it's hard to argue that the films aren't beautiful to look at. Maybe all the blame for any plot holes or lazy storytelling shortcuts should fall at the feet of Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof. Though, I'm not so sure that Star Trek (in any incarnation) was ever completely free from those traps. Excusing them in the past only to pick at them now seems unfair.

The second issue is that JJ didn't grow up a Trek fan. And I think that shows. To some degree it's a strength, but to some degree it's a weakness. As you say, especially in the surface-level and loud elements. I totally understand that. But I think JJ did breathe new life into a dying series. He, Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof all, I think, deserve praise for what they did especially with the first installment. JJ did bring fresh eyes to the property. He just pissed off a lot of old school fans who wanted something else. Even if they didn't know what they wanted. Even if they wanted change, they wanted a different change. Sort of like people who keep saying they want Pearl Jam to do something new, but then hate Lightning Bolt for not sounding like Pearl Jam.

With SW I think JJ as writer/director will rely much less on the nostalgia and surface-level cultural footprints because he's an uber fan. Will they be present? Probably to some degree, but I wonder how heavy handed it will be. I'm known for being wrong, but my guess would be: it'll be minimal. JJ's much more suited to Star Wars. Which is probably why I liked his Star Trek so much. But anyway, yes, both franchises have grown stale and need new life. Trek less so, in my mind, because of what JJ & Co have already achieved. I hope the next chapter will be something brand new to the Trek universe. If it isn't, we'll know who to blame.

They need it bad. And even if you did like these last two movies (sigh),

[epilogue]

Remember the indigenous people in ST:ID?

Awful

Hey that was the only trek-like moment in those movies for me.

This right here is the real crux of the issue. Both of these franchises mean something different to so many different people. Everyone feels entitled to them, like they own a piece of them. And that makes everyone demand different things. Everyone wants them done their way or not at all.

[epilogue]

But he isn't an ideas man. He's no inventor. [/img]

Maybe not in a big way on a big screen. But the best parts of his TV series are the parts he's been involved with. Which is usually just the beginning, the creative process. The ideas. Say what you want about how LOST ended, no one ever talks about how they hate the idea of LOST or the beginning of LOST. And that was Abrams. Same with Fringe. Same with Alias. Those shows may run away from themselves over time, but the ideas, the JJ part of those equations is on point.

[epilogue]

Its a cheap bad gimmick to begin with.

Lens flare.

Seriously.

We're supposed to admire someone's work and trust them because of lens flare??
Again, seriously??

OF COURSE DIME SERIOUSLY THE ONLY THING JJ ABRAMS HAS EVER BROUGHT TO THE TABLE IS LENS FLARES YOU SHOULD BOW DOWN AND TRUST HIM ABSOLUTELY BECAUSE LENS FLARES SERIOUSLY OHMYGOD LENS FLARES BUILT HOLLYWOOD AND THEY BUILD JJ ABRAMS AND LENS FLARES WILL BUILD YOU TOO SERIOUSLY LENS SERIOUSLY FLARES SERIOUSLY

Seriously!

I think you're going to enjoy these films more than any of us.





Seriously.

Probably not. I really don't care much for Star Wars. The first one is fun and holds up to repeated viewing. Empire is a masterpiece. The rest of them are decent to terrible. But, unlike most, I'm really excited that JJ is at the helm of Episode 7. That inspires rather than frightens me.

[epilogue]

My friend wants Yoda.

His point being 'surely he didn't just pop into existence. There has to be a whole planet of them'

To which I replied 'maybe the force just coalesced and formed him out of pure force'.

We will see.

But I hope they don't make the Smoke Monster mistake, ya know. Not everything needs to be explained. I'm okay without learning more about Yoda. But they've announced a Yoda stand alone, right? So we're getting it either way. I just hope they don't go too far with it. Leave some of it mysterious. Not everything needs an explanation.

[epilogue]

Its a cheap bad gimmick to begin with.

Lens flare.

Seriously.

We're supposed to admire someone's work and trust them because of lens flare??
Again, seriously??

OF COURSE DIME SERIOUSLY THE ONLY THING JJ ABRAMS HAS EVER BROUGHT TO THE TABLE IS LENS FLARES YOU SHOULD BOW DOWN AND TRUST HIM ABSOLUTELY BECAUSE LENS FLARES SERIOUSLY OHMYGOD LENS FLARES BUILT HOLLYWOOD AND THEY BUILD JJ ABRAMS AND LENS FLARES WILL BUILD YOU TOO SERIOUSLY LENS SERIOUSLY FLARES SERIOUSLY

Seriously!

[epilogue]

So apparently, according to the guy who leaked word about internal issues and possible script revision a while back, it's a total restart? With different characters, and none of Arndt's contribution sticking around?

Wow, that's really surprising. I just assumed it was some internal conflict about specifics and JJ & Larry were essentially taking over with the rewrite. A brand new script? That can't be good.

[McParadigm]

The first is that he takes nearly all criticism for the films, even the writing, which isn't his. The stylistic choices are all him, but I rather liked all those choices YES SERIOUSLY EVEN THE LENS FLARES SERIOUSLY and I think it's hard to argue that the films aren't beautiful to look at.

Even if you could argue the "he didn't write it, so..." bit about the first movie, its success gave him all the power he needed to fix the issue on the second one. He did not.

But even that doesn't really work, because Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman have followed him around since jump. Anything they screw up on one of his movies is HIS screw up, because HE brings them along and HE works with them all the time.

Though, I'm not so sure that Star Trek (in any incarnation) was ever completely free from those traps. Excusing them in the past only to pick at them now seems unfair.

As has been mentioned in this thread, part of Star Trek's problem has been that it hasn't translated well to movies...which is one more reason not to rely completely on precedence for the blueprinting of a reboot design.

But I think JJ did breathe new life into a dying series. He, Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof all, I think, deserve praise for what they did especially with the first installment. JJ did bring fresh eyes to the property. He just pissed off a lot of old school fans who wanted something else. Even if they didn't know what they wanted. Even if they wanted change, they wanted a different change. Sort of like people who keep saying they want Pearl Jam to do something new, but then hate Lightning Bolt for not sounding like Pearl Jam.

Here's why this argument sounds good: it plays on the fact that there isn't a consensus of vision on what should have happened instead, making it little different than "I'd like to see you do better."

Here's why it's actually crap: It's identical to the defense that would be utilized if Lightning Bolt had been a Kanye-produced sample-heavy album with a sex-heavy Eddie Vedder / Miley Cyrus duet, or if JJ had played Spock as a whiny statistician with an inexplicable love interest and a sort of "no homo" reaction to Kirk that....wait...that's sort of how he played him. But you see the point. If this argument could be used, exactly as is, to defend/justify extreme and obvious garbage, then it's not the argument you're looking for.

With SW I think JJ as writer/director will rely much less on the nostalgia and surface-level cultural footprints because he's an uber fan.

I think his work on Super 8 tells us a lot about how he responds to that fandom: he becomes a curator of the past...good at cleaning the thing up, you know, and making it shine, and creating a provocative display that...

Why does that sound familiar?

STOP THROWING UP ON ME

[McParadigm]

You know, durd, I don't even know what you and I would talk about if there weren't things that start with Star in them out there, not mattering for all to see.

[epilogue]

Even if you could argue the "he didn't write it, so..." bit about the first movie, its success gave him all the power he needed to fix the issue on the second one. He did not.

But even that doesn't really work, because Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman have followed him around since jump. Anything they screw up on one of his movies is HIS screw up, because HE brings them along and HE works with them all the time.

Fair enough. Ultimately, JJ doesn't perceive the work as flawed as you (and others) do. Obviously. So he does deserve that level of criticism. I'll concede that.

But I think JJ's hands-off-ness regarding crafting the script (as documented) speaks well of him. And, as I said, JJ's out of #3 but Orci and Kurtzman are still in. If 3 sucks...

As has been mentioned in this thread, part of Star Trek's problem has been that it hasn't translated well to movies...which is one more reason not to rely completely on precedence for the blueprinting of a reboot design.

But have they, though? If so why are so many people complaining that it "isn't Trek?"

Here's why this argument sounds good: it plays on the fact that there isn't a consensus of vision on what should have happened instead, making it little different than "I'd like to see you do better."

Here's why it's actually crap: It's identical to the defense that would be utilized if Lightning Bolt had been a Kanye-produced sample-heavy album with a sex-heavy Eddie Vedder / Miley Cyrus duet, or if JJ had played Spock as a whiny statistician with an inexplicable love interest and a sort of "no homo" reaction to Kirk that....wait...that's sort of how he played him. But you see the point. If this argument could be used, exactly as is, to defend/justify extreme and obvious garbage, then it's not the argument you're looking for.

Well, humor. And also STAR TREK ISN'T EXTREME AND OBVIOUS GARBAGE.

I think his work on Super 8 tells us a lot about how he responds to that fandom: he becomes a curator of the past...good at cleaning the thing up, you know, and making it shine, and creating a provocative display that...

But let's leave Super 8 out of this argument because the point of Super 8 was nostalgia. That was the goal. And he knocked it out of the park. It wasn't a response to fandom, it was a love letter to growing up and to the kinds of films that inspired him, the kinds of films he wanted to make. It was an homage.