Transgender Rights

[Self]

Then it is what I presumed, but I am no closer to understanding. I’m sorry if I am being obtuse. Would you please explain your meaning further?

I am not explaining it well.

The allegations from the article are illustrative of a conflict where we saw a rapid change in social policy in one direction, in which student lead and other activism pushed school admins and policymakers to quickly get onboard with gender acceptance issues, and now we are seeing things start to swing in the opposite direction in which student lead and other activism is pushing school admins and policymakers to get off-board with gender acceptance issues. There will be more frequent conflicts between young people who are vocally opposed to trans kids in female spaces that will run directly into the trans acceptance policies that has been embedded in schools over the last decade. How the teachers and admins react to this is going to be very important both for safety and political power in the near future.

I think the current state of the bigger issue of trans youth acceptance is similar to desegregation when we had conflict between federal, state, and school policies mixed in with a lot of fear and prejudice complicating the issue. There will need to be some level "this is how it is now, get over it", but it's risky with Trump/MAGA in power. It could blow up and send support for youth struggling with identity back decades and the feds and Supreme Court won't be on the liberal side this time.

you explained it fine. They just want it to be about something else.

no, Bertrude. why would I want it to be about anything but what was posted? we went from school officials engaging in trans activism and what to do with them, to the segregation topic. that's fine, but don't try to tell me we were supposed to know that was the point all along.

[Dev]

Then it is what I presumed, but I am no closer to understanding. I’m sorry if I am being obtuse. Would you please explain your meaning further?

I am not explaining it well.

The allegations from the article are illustrative of a conflict where we saw a rapid change in social policy in one direction, in which student lead and other activism pushed school admins and policymakers to quickly get onboard with gender acceptance issues, and now we are seeing things start to swing in the opposite direction in which student lead and other activism is pushing school admins and policymakers to get off-board with gender acceptance issues. There will be more frequent conflicts between young people who are vocally opposed to trans kids in female spaces that will run directly into the trans acceptance policies that has been embedded in schools over the last decade. How the teachers and admins react to this is going to be very important both for safety and political power in the near future.

I think the current state of the bigger issue of trans youth acceptance is similar to desegregation when we had conflict between federal, state, and school policies mixed in with a lot of fear and prejudice complicating the issue. There will need to be some level "this is how it is now, get over it", but it's risky with Trump/MAGA in power. It could blow up and send support for youth struggling with identity back decades and the feds and Supreme Court won't be on the liberal side this time.

Thank you. I don’t think I disagree with any of that. If I do, it is measured in single digit degrees.

I’ll be honest: I don’t think a lot about the trans issue these days….because I think it’s future is fully slaved to the broader conflict that is going on around us.

I am, I confess, someone who believes that the end ambition of the MAGA movement is competitive authoritarianism and control. A faux America, with predetermined elections, where the power of the state is weaponized to hermetically seal (and enforce) specific cultural rules. You are welcome to assign me any number of derangement syndromes for that, if you’d like. But when people tell me what they intend to do and then start to do it, I believe them.

In that event, I do not honestly foresee any future for trans rights in America. It is, sadly, a moot point.

I don’t often think about what trans rights might look like in a post-MAGA world, either, because I don’t like thinking about what the journey between here and there might entail.

But I do think that a school district writing and consistently enforcing a clear policy that students do not ever have to change in front of other students if they do not want to, and then providing facilities to accommodate that circumstance, is about as good as start as you’re ever gonna get.

Fuck you are the most depressing guy to read on the forum at this point. And sadly the guy who has the best sense of what this will all look like going forward.

[Bi_3]

But I do think that a school district writing and consistently enforcing a clear policy that students do not ever have to change in front of other students if they do not want to, and then providing facilities to accommodate that circumstance, is about as good as start as you’re ever gonna get.

Yes, agree. I believe I've mentioned this before but requiring the "open bathroom" designs in new school builds will help as well.

But.

Given the state of things, is there a situation in which it makes more practical sense to ask the trans identified student to use the alternate facility instead of asking like a large group of objectors to? Is it better, like with racial integration, to have school admins and teachers try and force the situation over the objections of students or should they consider the alternative even if it means contributing to the sense of alienation in the student with identity issues?

[spike]

no

[McParadigm]

But I do think that a school district writing and consistently enforcing a clear policy that students do not ever have to change in front of other students if they do not want to, and then providing facilities to accommodate that circumstance, is about as good as start as you’re ever gonna get.

Yes, agree. I believe I've mentioned this before but requiring the "open bathroom" designs in new school builds will help as well.

But.

Given the state of things, is there a situation in which it makes more practical sense to ask the trans identified student to use the alternate facility instead of asking like a large group of objectors to? Is it better, like with racial integration, to have school admins and teachers try and force the situation over the objections of students or should they consider the alternative even if it means contributing to the sense of alienation in the student with identity issues?

I don’t think you want school districts and lawyers drafting policies that say when a student objects to another student being in a location, the target student is the one that gets removed. The scope of unintended consequences is immense.

[BurtReynolds]

Anyone who has seen Starship Troopers knows what the obvious answer to the problem is. The progresso-fascist synthesis.

[McParadigm]

Fuck you are the most depressing guy to read on the forum at this point. And sadly the guy who has the best sense of what this will all look like going forward.

I sure do hope that I’m just wrong in public on this one.

[Bi_3]

But I do think that a school district writing and consistently enforcing a clear policy that students do not ever have to change in front of other students if they do not want to, and then providing facilities to accommodate that circumstance, is about as good as start as you’re ever gonna get.

Yes, agree. I believe I've mentioned this before but requiring the "open bathroom" designs in new school builds will help as well.

But.

Given the state of things, is there a situation in which it makes more practical sense to ask the trans identified student to use the alternate facility instead of asking like a large group of objectors to? Is it better, like with racial integration, to have school admins and teachers try and force the situation over the objections of students or should they consider the alternative even if it means contributing to the sense of alienation in the student with identity issues?

I don’t think you want school districts and lawyers drafting policies that say when a student objects to another student being in a location, the target student is the one that gets removed. The scope of unintended consequences is immense.

Yeah, for a 1:1 that makes sense in some situations, but like for violent students or students who have been bullied/victimized by violence, admins and teachers will often make adjustments to preserve safety and stability in the learning environment. I do think that large groups make things more complicated and vibes right now are very anti-trans. There is a real risk that standing on principle here will provoke a backlash much more severe than just who gets to change in which locker room and when. If the article that started this part of the discussion is a setup as I think you implied, that would be a good example. It very well could be that activist parents will force schools to either move trans identified students or lose funding under Trump's EO and the newly gutted DoEd.


For the others:

*** I AM NOT ADVOCATING FOR ANY POSITION, JUST EXPLORING THOUGHTS HERE***

[Bi_3]

Or something like this at high/jr high level:

[tree_]

but then girls ain't never gonna win nothing no more

[Peeps]

so its the trans going after tesla huh

Unsurprisingly, Musk ran with the fact that some of the people charged with the Tesla vandalism may be gender non-conforming, suggesting that it pointed to a larger phenomenon of violence perpetrated by trans people. “What are the statistics on trans violence?” Musk asked in his repost of Insurrectionist Barbie’s post. Ever the dilettante, Musk quickly answered his own question—with more of the baseless transphobia he has long spewed on his platform. “The probability of a trans person being violent appears to be vastly higher than non-trans,” Musk falsely claimed. “Hormone injections cause extreme emotional volatility. That is simply a fact.”

[spike]

but then girls ain't never gonna win nothing no more

HE’S NOT ADVOCATING FOR ANY POSITION, JUST EXPLORING THOUGHTS HERE

[BurtReynolds]

Bi's long game is finally revealed by local mind-reader: to end women's sports.

[spike]

Burt your problem is you never think big, man.

[Dev]

Question: how big is the spectrum of trans people?

Like there are the people who genuinely want to present as a woman; these people have always been around. Cross-dressers etc. this is the group who wants to be on Ru-Pauls drag race.

Then there are non-binary people who are more ideologically driven. These are the people primarily motivated by the idea that gender norms are social constructs and are not real(I agree with the premise but I don't feel inclined to present as the opposite sex). These are the people that sometimes compete in women's sports.

Do you agree with my general breakdown? I know this isn't perfect and I am not even sure I am on the right track.

[BurtReynolds]

Burt your problem is you never think big, man.

Nice try, but if I did think you would be able to read my mind. I am twelve steps ahead of you at any given time.

[spike]

Burt your problem is you never think big, man.

Nice try, but if I did think you would be able to read my mind. I am twelve steps ahead of you at any given time.

You win this round, my lobotomized friend.

[Bi_3]

Timely example from the first trans federal lawmaker. Perhaps that is voice you all will listen to

[Dev]

Also because being "all-in on trans" is not as simple as being "all-in on gay" for example. And how these two groups are functionally different in society might be a good place to start on why trans rights is so controversial. Gay rights do not introduce bathroom, and sports issues and all the rest. Honestly I feel like this comparison sets the stage for how you deal with trans issues. Afford them all the rights we can afford other minority groups but where they demand extraneous accommodations is where we probably have to draw the line.

[Bi_3]

Deadnaming now illegal in Colorado: