I'm most surprised Salt Lake City is towards the bottom.
I do see Seattle and Portland. And by no surprise, the smaller Spokane is higher on the list but not by much I really think there's something to this small town bible thumping nonsense.
Do you think politics plays into this as well? I don't have much to go by as I've lived mostly in Christian dominate areas (Eastern Oregon & Lynchburg, VA both of which are w/out question GOP hot zones).
Seeing SLC rank so low make me think that they're reluctant to count the Book of Mormon as Bible reading. If they bothered to list Boise it'd probably rank close to Spokane but if they're not counting the LDS church then it could go lower. I see the Northwest as quite being quite diverse on religion, actually. I should put back up my maps I made a long time ago on this subject.
turned2black wrote:That list is stupid. I live in PHX and can tell you The Jesus is everywhere.
The only thing I can think of is that there is some kind of anti-Mormon bias to the list. We have 2 temples here and a ward in every neighborhood.
Not to mention all the mega-churches and cars with "Real Men Love Jesus" bumper stickers.
This seems to be the case when you don't live that lifestyle, it just rears it's ugly head all around you. That is based on an assumption you aren't religious, of course.
Growing up in Eastern Oregon I don't remember anyone praying, talking about their faith or really making an effort to explain their religious views. Now, every time I go back for a visit I get into arguments with people who are trying to tell me I'm going to hell for not going to church or having some kind of "religion" that I'm practicing.
I hate to say I love you,
But oh goddamn I love you,
You know I do.
turned2black wrote:That list is stupid. I live in PHX and can tell you The Jesus is everywhere.
The only thing I can think of is that there is some kind of anti-Mormon bias to the list. We have 2 temples here and a ward in every neighborhood.
Not to mention all the mega-churches and cars with "Real Men Love Jesus" bumper stickers.
This seems to be the case when you don't live that lifestyle, it just rears it's ugly head all around you. That is based on an assumption you aren't religious, of course.
Growing up in Eastern Oregon I don't remember anyone praying, talking about their faith or really making an effort to explain their religious views. Now, every time I go back for a visit I get into arguments with people who are trying to tell me I'm going to hell for not going to church or having some kind of "religion" that I'm practicing.
Stories like these are always fascinating to me because I've never received any shit for my lack of religion, and it just strikes me as such a cruel thing to do to other people. I guess it helps that my dad's mother was the only non-atheist in my entire extended family ( ), but still...
Biff Pocoroba wrote:From the American Bible Society a listing of the most and least Bible minded (daily reading of the Bible & belief in its accuracy) US cities.
Biff Pocoroba wrote:From the American Bible Society a listing of the most and least Bible minded (daily reading of the Bible & belief in its accuracy) US cities.
I'm not particularly religious either. Most of my friends seem that way too; or at least they don't wear their religion on their sleeves. But my family, my dad and his side in particular, are. I'm talking red state evangelical religious. I'd think Chloe & I have had similiar experiences with this subject.
Biff Pocoroba wrote:I'm not particularly religious either. Most of my friends seem that way too; or at least they don't wear their religion on their sleeves. But my family, my dad and his side in particular, are. I'm talking red state evangelical religious. I'd think Chloe & I have had similiar experiences with this subject.
I have lots of red state, hard core repubs, bible beating, ethnic hating relatives down South. I just don't get it. It's probably why I've lived in the DC area for so long.
For me, the God thing is pretty simple. I believe in something bigger than you and I, but I have no clue what it is. If mankind had any say in it, I thing it's corrupted and wrong. So for me, all religion is bullshit.
Confessor wrote:Although I'm sure it would have come up in some other thread anyway, this is too good of a discussion to not continue on its own right. Here's a good summary of my own beliefs (from http://orthodoxwiki.org/Panentheism):
"Most specifically, these Churches teach that God is not the "watchmaker God" or mechanical God of philosophy found in Western European Enlightenment. Likewise, they teach that God is not the "stage magician God" who only shows up when performing miracles. Instead, the teaching of both these Churches is that God is not merely necessary to have created the universe, but that His active presence is necessary in some way for every bit of creation, from smallest to greatest, to continue to exist at all. That is, God's energies maintain all things and all beings, even if those beings have explicitly rejected Him. His love of creation is such that he will not withdraw His presence, which would be the ultimate form of slaughter, not merely imposing death but ending existence, altogether. By this token, the entirety of creation is sanctified, and thus no part of creation can be considered innately evil. This does not deny the existence of evil in a fallen universe, only that it is not an innate property of creation. "
Discuss.
Realizing that there is not a lot of people who will self identify as "Panentheist", similiar views are a common fallback position amongst Abrahamists who reject the vindictive God that fundamentalist believe in.
As such it often seems like an intentional effort for some theists to distance themselves from what they perceive as the baseness of certain other theists.
Anytime you start talking about a supernatural being it's all about faith, though, I say whatever helps you sleep at night.
That's quite a false dichotomy you're setting up there. Going from 'fundamentalists' (a modern movement; liberalism was / is meant to counterbalance it) to 'certain other theists' is a stretch. One can reject the beliefs of fundamentalists and still be called validly (even classically) Christian, since 'fundamentalists' themselves are not classically Christian.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
I just realised that Confessor made the same point more eloquently. So I'll leave it to him.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
Biff Pocoroba wrote:From the American Bible Society a listing of the most and least Bible minded (daily reading of the Bible & belief in its accuracy) US cities.
It basically states that a growing number of Americans under 30 are or are becoming unaffiliated with any organized religion.
This of course gives way to a raucous applause from the atheist community, who feel they're winning some kind of battle. Yet, The Pew Forum states in one section:
"However, a new survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life, conducted jointly with the PBS television program Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly, finds that many of the country’s 46 million unaffiliated adults are religious or spiritual in some way. Two-thirds of them say they believe in God (68%). More than half say they often feel a deep connection with nature and the earth (58%), while more than a third classify themselves as “spiritual” but not “religious” (37%), and one-in-five (21%) say they pray every day. In addition, most religiously unaffiliated Americans think that churches and other religious institutions benefit society by strengthening community bonds and aiding the poor.
With few exceptions, though, the unaffiliated say they are not looking for a religion that would be right for them. Overwhelmingly, they think that religious organizations are too concerned with money and power, too focused on rules and too involved in politics."
The point being that I don't understand atheist motives. You can try to weaken a religious organization, fine, but you'll never eradicate the innate desire in people to find God in their lives.
I know, I've strolled down this avenue before, but I just find this "None" movement (and the atheist reaction) to be a fascinating period in our present day. And I'm curious to see how it plays out in the decades to come.
Most of the atheists/agnostics I know would love to see religion eradicated from the planet, but are perfectly fine with the idea of spirituality. Where "spirituality" is a personal relationship with whatever omnipotent being or force you identify with, while "religion" is a doctrinal system of control, manipulation and oppression.
Go Nones. Independent thought and humility.
Anders wrote:I do not have a «neoliberal assessment of geopolitics», so please stop writing that I do.
theplatypus wrote:Most of the atheists/agnostics I know would love to see religion eradicated from the planet, but are perfectly fine with the idea of spirituality. Where "spirituality" is a personal relationship with whatever omnipotent being or force you identify with, while "religion" is a doctrinal system of control, manipulation and oppression.
Go Nones. Independent thought and humility.
I'm a proud None, but I can't agree with religion being only a "system of control, manipulation, and oppression." Religious institutions defintely need to be reformed (Catholicism), but there are do-gooders and highly intelligent people in the Christian community (Martin L. King being one) who serve or have served a purpose.
One guy I like today is Fr. Barron and his "wordonfire" videos on youtube. He's highly articulate and well read, and in general seems to be an all around reasonable guy. His youtube videos consist of movie reviews, philosophical debates, current events etc. I don't agree with all his stuff, but he could hold his own in a debate.
I've come to the view that 'Christendom' (the modern worldview of the West which, for centuries, has assumed that a vaguely "Christian" moral or religious aesthetic will define the epitome of a moral life) can die. I would have no problem with our current religious structures being pulled down. If God exists, he / she will not cease to exist just because man doesn't have religion. But pulling down our existing structures might mean that people (especially those who claim to follow Jesus) might have a chance of reviewing their theology, and changing it where needed. While people think they have to adhere to tradition, that's not going to happen (to the extent that it should). I'm bored of religion, but in the last year -- probably the most 'searching' of my life -- I still haven't lost my faith. That would mean losing myself, I think, so I haven't done it, couldn't do it. But could I lose church? Yeah.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
harmless wrote:I've come to the view that 'Christendom' (the modern worldview of the West which, for centuries, has assumed that a vaguely "Christian" moral or religious aesthetic will define the epitome of a moral life) can die. I would have no problem with our current religious structures being pulled down. If God exists, he / she will not cease to exist just because man doesn't have religion. But pulling down our existing structures might mean that people (especially those who claim to follow Jesus) might have a chance of reviewing their theology, and changing it where needed. While people think they have to adhere to tradition, that's not going to happen (to the extent that it should). I'm bored of religion, but in the last year -- probably the most 'searching' of my life -- I still haven't lost my faith. That would mean losing myself, I think, so I haven't done it, couldn't do it. But could I lose church? Yeah.
I don't care for the West much, either. I think the path started by Scholasticism and early second-millennium thinking is beginning to spiral off into the sunset, and some of its elements are popping up in Eastern Christian practice (the way some Christians are behaving recently in Russia is an example), although the rot isn't as prevalent with us IMO. Here, God is an entirely different reality than in Western theology; He is primarily an experience, and not in the Pentecostal sense of the term.
theplatypus wrote:"religion" is a doctrinal system of control, manipulation and oppression.
I'm a proud None, but I can't agree with religion being only a "system of control, manipulation, and oppression." Religious institutions defintely need to be reformed (Catholicism), but there are do-gooders and highly intelligent people in the Christian community (Martin L. King being one) who serve or have served a purpose.
There are "good people" in cults too. It still doesn't change the fact that they're in a cult, and inadvertantly responsible for aiding in untold death and destruction, all in the name of the lord.
theplatypus wrote:"religion" is a doctrinal system of control, manipulation and oppression.
I'm a proud None, but I can't agree with religion being only a "system of control, manipulation, and oppression." Religious institutions defintely need to be reformed (Catholicism), but there are do-gooders and highly intelligent people in the Christian community (Martin L. King being one) who serve or have served a purpose.
There are "good people" in cults too. It still doesn't change the fact that they're in a cult, and inadvertantly responsible for aiding in untold death and destruction, all in the name of the lord.
Good people do good things wherever they are. Good people have good, moral reasons for being where they are, and they try to do the best they can in that context. 'Being in a cult' means nothing more than 'being in a house' or 'being in a potato', if the people are seeking to do good things. The problems with Christianity are plenty. I know. But if people want to stay within that context and help bring about the reforms that are needed, they're welcome to try. IMO. People should be taken on an individual basis and damning them all just because of the context they live against is silly.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
I really think there's something to this small town bible thumping nonsense.
If they bothered to list Boise it'd probably rank close to Spokane but if they're not counting the LDS church then it could go lower. I see the Northwest as quite being quite diverse on religion, actually. I should put back up my maps I made a long time ago on this subject.
